MPC2000XL (Simult / Step edit)

Could someone please give me some insight on why simult
gives some weird readings on step edit? I have some
kick hits that are hitting on the same exact time, and most
that are delayed by 1-2 frames from each other... I was trying
to track out individually, but I think I'm getting phase issues...
Maybe its usually like this. I'll have to remember to eq my sounds
up right next time.

Question though, if you are tracking individually, do you assign
both (IE. kick hits) to separate channels (IE. 1 and 2) even though
there is a simult on one kick hit (controlling both hits)?

the minor time differences are just part of the game - thats how the sampler works.

as for the individual outs question, that is up to you - if you want to process the separately, sure, assign them to two outs. if you want to treat them as one thing, then assign to the same out.

Thanks tape... long time no talk... I'm always grateful for your feedback man.
so... simult produces a minor delay between the two sounds within step edit?

I deleted the duplicated sounds, so now all I have is 1 pad with the simult playing
my kick groove, and the simult still appears to be working okay... thoughts?

i dont really follow...are you asking if editing in a 'manual' simult via step edit is the same as a 'real' simult feature? there might be differences, the simult on playback via the simult feature could be perfect timing but in the step editor there might be a delay because the machine probably processes sequence steps in some sort of serial fashion (one after the other, even if thats really fkn fast)

point is even two events happening at the same time could come out a little phase offset - especially if its the exact same sound, you will notice it alot more. you might not ever notice it if the sounds are different enough.

nice to see you again

That really helped my understanding on the deeper perspective of things... I appreciate that!

However, the problem was that, I had my simult (PAD C15 was carrying a +1 simult with PAD C16)... so, in my sequence, I was basically triggering PAD C15 only for my kick groove...

but when I tracked out, something sounded off...

so I took a look at the manual step edit, and PAD C15, along with PAD C16 were popping up separately (everywhere).. along with PAD C06 (probably human error on this one)...

so I erased all of the (C16's) along with the (C06's) in every sequence and it seemed like what I recorded in the daw sounds about right... (same sound as from the MP)...

I just thought that was weird and possibly the causation of some phase issues... does the same thing happen with your sequences w/ simult?

Thanks man. Same!! , are you on soundcloud or any social media?

xvw wrote: I just thought that was weird and possibly the causation of some phase issues... does the same thing happen with your sequences w/ simult?

Thanks man. Same!! , are you on soundcloud or any social media?

i'd have to bust out the xl to try this and i'm mostly on a 1k these days. its an interesting problem tho to me and i've got the weekend off from gigs this week (first one all year i think ), so i was planning on spending time doing stupid sampler sh*t...this is a good one to test out.

could you have accidentally hit the c15 pad during recording too? so like, the simult from c16 was triggering it along with the actual c15 hit?
i'm not sure how the machine records simults, if it actually places the note in or if it just puts the pad that should simult.

could you also have a midi feedback loop going? like could you be accidentally recording the output simult data?
just sounds like somehow, yer getting an extra note in the sequence that you dont need.

I'm really happy for your success, and that you have all these gigs lined up for you man!!

... and you're right, you can't do any wrong with messing with the sampler on a free weekend!! haha


how's that 1k treating you? I want to get on that JJOS some day, I might do the 2500 route
with that screen upgrade as my next piece of gear... I just added a sp303 to the fam, along
with a 404sx that I've had since december.. these boxes are fun


I don't think that it was me that triggered both of the pads at the same time, or at a fraction of a second from one another, (C15 (simult C15+C16) and C16 (part of simult)) because the duplication occurred after every single hit, and sometimes on the same hit!

It could be a midi loop issue, but I can't see how it could be... I'm sending midi out (A) from the mpc to trigger a few pads on the 404sx... I don't know how that would cause a duplication because the midi is on a separate program/drum from all of my drum sounds, and my drum sounds are snd. files that are already on the MP...

lol, I don't know, this was some type of anomaly

do you have midi from the 404 going back into the mpc?
if so, theres potential for feedback.

if you have no midi going into the mpc, then yea, the plot thickens

@xvw just a thought here -- I wonder if you would have the same phasing issue if instead of using SIMULT, just copy the track sequence for C15 to C16 so that they're still triggering at the same time?

I realize that SIMULT is accomplishing the same thing however accomplished in less steps, it would be interesting to see how or if the XL handles this differently.

richie wrote:@xvw just a thought here -- I wonder if you would have the same phasing issue if instead of using SIMULT, just copy the track sequence for C15 to C16 so that they're still triggering at the same time?

I realize that SIMULT is accomplishing the same thing however accomplished in less steps, it would be interesting to see how or if the XL handles this differently.

really cool idea - we got some science on our hands now

i just did some tests on my xl.
- when you use simult, the sequencer only records the original pad hit. so i have pad a1 triggering two other pads, but step edit only shows pad a1*.
- simults do not transfer from other simults. for example, if i have pad a1 triggering pad a2, and pad a2 triggering a3, when i hit pad a1, pad a3 will NOT play. it will only play when i hit pad a2.
- simult sounds from the sequencer and from the pad hit sound to be perfectly in phase. when i layered the same two bass drum sounds (almost a pure sine), they just doubled in volume, no phasing issues. sounds perfect every time i hit it and every time sequencer hits it.
- unrelated to original problem but interesting nonetheless, when you simult pads, the note variation (tuning/filter/etc) translates to all those pads.

to be extra scientific, i did this again using pure single-cycle waveforms. *now* i can hear that simult definitely is not perfectly sample accurate, but its damn close. i could barely hear phasing differences, but the sound was still slightly different with repeated hits.
(i've since decided this is the correct way to do this test so i'm doing this using single-cycle** waveforms from now on)

and richie, i went ahead and did your idea as well. instead of simult, i tried triggering the same sound (both via different pads and the same pads) on different tracks. this was actually more interesting than i thought it would be... the sounds sounded almost more in sync, like less sample or sub-sample variation. if i let the sequence run enough, eventually i would hear the phasing, but at first it really sounded consistent every time the sequence hit.

*so in regards to original post, if you were getting more than one hit in the sequencer, you have something else wrong.

**the xl really doesnt handle single-cycle waveforms very well (i think it wont loop them), so i am using a double cycle waveform, which is just from a script i wrote a while back that just duplicated single-cycle files so i could use them on the xl.

tapedeck wrote:do you have midi from the 404 going back into the mpc?
if so, theres potential for feedback.

if you have no midi going into the mpc, then yea, the plot thickens

The plot did thicken at that moment, lol. The 404 actually only has one midi port, which is
"midi in" ...so there was no handshake between the two devices.

Eliminating that, there couldn't possibly be potential for midi feedback, correct?

richie wrote:@xvw just a thought here -- I wonder if you would have the same phasing issue if instead of using SIMULT, just copy the track sequence for C15 to C16 so that they're still triggering at the same time?

I realize that SIMULT is accomplishing the same thing however accomplished in less steps, it would be interesting to see how or if the XL handles this differently.

Sounds like an even better approach if I run into this same problem again... I appreciate it richie!

It probably would only take a minute or so more to do, but it would be a whole lot better than to
run into this issue again

tapedeck wrote:i just did some tests on my xl.
- when you use simult, the sequencer only records the original pad hit. so i have pad a1 triggering two other pads, but step edit only shows pad a1*.
- simults do not transfer from other simults. for example, if i have pad a1 triggering pad a2, and pad a2 triggering a3, when i hit pad a1, pad a3 will NOT play. it will only play when i hit pad a2.
- simult sounds from the sequencer and from the pad hit sound to be perfectly in phase. when i layered the same two bass drum sounds (almost a pure sine), they just doubled in volume, no phasing issues. sounds perfect every time i hit it and every time sequencer hits it.

Awesome man, thank you for taking the time to really clear things up with this, and for writing an extensive reply.

I still have no idea if there was an issue via midi, causing a midi feedback loop or not, but at least I know that I'm not going crazy ...and that the (simult function) when used, does not show two separate notes within the manual step editor...

tapedeck wrote:- unrelated to original problem but interesting nonetheless, when you simult pads, the note variation (tuning/filter/etc) translates to all those pads.

That's great to know!! so, even so, the simult function carries the other pad through and through, even with the other functions of the sampler. I'll have to get back to using those processes to add a little mp flavor lol

tapedeck wrote:to be extra scientific, i did this again using pure single-cycle waveforms. *now* i can hear that simult definitely is not perfectly sample accurate, but its damn close. i could barely hear phasing differences, but the sound was still slightly different with repeated hits.
(i've since decided this is the correct way to do this test so i'm doing this using single-cycle** waveforms from now on)

and richie, i went ahead and did your idea as well. instead of simult, i tried triggering the same sound (both via different pads and the same pads) on different tracks. this was actually more interesting than i thought it would be... the sounds sounded almost more in sync, like less sample or sub-sample variation. if i let the sequence run enough, eventually i would hear the phasing, but at first it really sounded consistent every time the sequence hit.

*so in regards to original post, if you were getting more than one hit in the sequencer, you have something else wrong.

**the xl really doesnt handle single-cycle waveforms very well (i think it wont loop them), so i am using a double cycle waveform, which is just from a script i wrote a while back that just duplicated single-cycle files so i could use them on the xl.

By single cycled waves, do you mean exactly one crest and one trough?

I think I've tried to do this before when creating a pure-sine bass tone, and then slapping a low-pass on it at about 30 or 40 or so...

if this is what I think you're talking about, yeah I had quite some difficulty getting it to work due to the way that the 2kxl loops when considering the start and end times..

that script must really help out a ton


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nonetheless, this is some really interesting testing that you've done. I can tell that you've really spent a lot of time with these machines, I'm grateful for the time that you took to dish out this knowledge!