Tascam DP-24 : the only new MTR with MIDI sync

I didn't think about that. Where would you put it, bottom right by the transport controls? The MPC2500 has a similar layout with it top right, but the Akai DPS24 is bottom right.

Bottom right would have been better. If you're doing a lot of editing, having to constantly reach to the top of the machine would piss me off.

I've got it synced up with MPC so I can control the synced playback from either the MTR or MPC. I also have a double footswitch for MPC, and a triple footswitch for MTR. This gives me 5 foot switches for controlling the combination.

The metronomes while synced seem stable enough, but there does seem to be a slight delay between them, where they don't strike 100% at the same time. I haven't found a way to offset for the latency between machines.

Using MTC and MMC their timelines seem to stay together, like when stopped and pressing [BAR] buttons on MPC, or moving JOG on MTR. But [PLAY START] doesn't go to the start, you have to [STOP] then [GO TO]+[START].

I've also found I can control the MTR with the MPC Q-links. So I can be at the MPC, start playing, and use the Q-link knob for changing pan, and Q-link slider for changing level. To change tracks I just change tracks on the MPC.

That would work good for people tracking out, because you can do the 8 outputs into the MTR, then mix right from the MPC. The Q-link knob feels much better to control pan with than the MTR one, since on MPC I can do a full sweep with 1 turn.

I made 2 .wav files with beeps, and imported them to the MPC and MTR using USB. Then I panned each to its own channel, and recorded them playing synced using MTC sent from MTR to MPC. I recorded multiple takes, moving the playhead back to start, then pressing play on either the MPC or MTR.

The result is the MTR plays first, then the MPC slightly after. The delay before the MPC plays was either 10 ms or 42 ms, where it varied between takes but was always one of those. Then I tried MIDI CLOCK, and it seemed to be tighter, with either 7 ms or 40 ms. When it's 10 ms it's not very noticeable, but when it's 42 there's a slight delay chunking. I wonder why it is so high sometimes, if it's JJOS fault or MTR. Maybe it has something to do with the internal clock, and at which moment I press play.

I don't like how with MTC the MPC has to wait for the MIDI communication, so if you hit play there's a tiny delay before it plays. It makes it feel more like PC software when your buffer setting isn't super low. With MIDI clock, since it's not dependent, you can press [PLAY START] multiple times and hear it responding instantly.

But there's a problem with MIDI CLOCK where the MPC seems to send a MMC play command when you press play on the MTR, then the MTR receive this MMC command, but it's already playing, so it stops. Plus MIDI CLOCK is detached from the MTR's timeline, so it can get way out of sync if you change positions on the MPC then hit play. I like how with MTC you can change the playhead on either machine and they both sync.

But latencies that aren't always the same can cause discrepancies, and 42 ms isn't good. Even 10 ms isn't great. There needs to be a way to offset the time, so the MTR can either wait some milliseconds for the MPC to start, or the MPC skip ahead some milliseconds to account for its delay. There's the "Start Time" option, where you can set 00h00m00s00.00f, but either I don't understand how it works or it doesn't help.

In recording tests of the sync I also seemed to find that the MIDI synth I have hooked up to the MPC itself has a delay of something like that, I forget, maybe 15 ms. Also the MTR doesn't have recording latency compensation, so its recordings can be a few milliseconds off too.

Unfortunately, this is just how it seems to be in the MIDI hardware world. With virtual software, everything is compensated for, so if the audio track and MIDI track with various synths are set to play at the first note of the first bar, that's when all the sounds will be. There's no delays in the internal timeline, just in the input and output of it to the real world.

Maybe it's still possible to get good results with all the latencies between machines, but it certainly changes things, and might make the mix sound loose and messy. That could be a good thing if that's the sound you want, for a more lively feel. But it's unpredictable, so you can't exactly control it. You just end up with the slight variation, and you didn't cause it, the machines did.

Even JJOS audio tracks don't compensate for latency, and it's always different each time you record.

The hardware recording vs computers and DAWs argument, for me, it's either side of the spectrum, nothing in between.


When I'm on my hardware, I make everything on my mpc and other gear, put it into a mixer, and straight into audacity with my interface. So it equivalent (workflow-wise) to recording to tape or using one stereo track on a MTR. Basically nothing on the computer.

But when I'm making music on my computer, I like trackers. Pretty much the opposite of using the mpc and other hardware, I don't even use a MIDI keyboard. Totally different kinds of music come out from both options.

I dunno.

sciguy wrote:Totally different kinds of music come out from both options.

People often say "it's the man not the machine", but I totally agree with what you're saying.

Different gear leads you in completely different directions. It's subliminal but it's there.

You can also just make music with a pencil and paper. Different tools for different jobs. A dedicated multitrack recorder has its use, especially synced to the MPC.

Jamon wrote:The idea is though, that with physical objects setup just right, I'd be able to play with that, and not need to reconnect with the virtual PC environment right away, while still producing for the digital world. I enjoy other more purely physical activities, but there's nothing to show for it. With a hardware studio though, I could continue to produce for the internet, without being in the internet 24/7.

It sounds like you're trapped in your own closeted mind. You should spend more time actually making music with the tools you have rather than philosophising about how free you will be with a totally hardware setup.

You need to find the right balance so the gear doesn't get in the way of the creative process. Either that or accept that you're just not cut out for it.

Making music isn't the primary goal for everyone. The people who feel this way though are minority, which is why the DP-24 is limited compared to machines from years ago, and is the only new MTR manufactured with MIDI sync.

I also use a DP24 with the MPC2500 (JJOS2XL)

I bought the Tascam instantly on release, as i were looking for a hands-on-mobile affordable hardware MTR for a while now.
Had a few bugs back then, now with the latest(and outdated) update it works a bit better without lockups and stuff. Still needs a good update for some other bugs. and perhaps the track transport could be more accurate. Hard to sync and cut BAR recordings too.

So i recognise the sync problems posted above, and read and tested some tricks a few months back. To record the MPC i use 4 to 8 empty bars before starting my sequence in the next pattern. this way all midi equip and MTR have some time to sync to clock.

Perhaps this could help some ppl as i'm also still figuring out the right method.

*UPDATE* After checking the Tascam site, found the new update v1.10!
http://tascam.com/product/dp-24/downloads/

Fixes the 48khz and 24bit to CD issues, meter peak hold function, powersave function and "SUBFRAME EDITTING!"

Recorded some stuff with midi clock sync to MPC, cut to BAR time and works like a charm!

Hey man, how is it working for you, the DP24, I'm after something simple to record on, given that I like to organize most of my stuff in the mpc and synths, and just need a no fuss recorder. How is the compression dynamics, what do the reverbs sound like?
cheers

This is the first time I have seen this thread. Wish I saw it sooner. Computer DAW is obviously a much more powerful way of working on music. I would imagine that if you have the means ($) you could build an absolutely incredible studio.
I do not use computers in my studio much. The only thing I do on computer is tweak a few settings on my gear that can't be done on the gears surface. For example I own a yamaha AN200 and once connected to a computer you can draw wave forms for it. I also tried playing with Aksys but I found it no fun.
Why do I like hardware multitrack recorders? It is a simple, efficient and a cost effective option. At this very moment you could buy a Roland VS2000 recorder for $400. I own two of these machines.
The Akai DPS, Roland VS2000, VS2400, VS2480, Korg D32XD are phenomenal machines. I have a particular fondness for the Korg D32xd. Anyone of these machines can make a professional sounding recording. If you can get any of these machines for at or around $500 then you are getting a serious bargain. Simply contrast it with the cost of an entire computer set up.
Regarding the Roland VS line... the converters are better in the newer VS machines that are in the 2K numerics. The newest machine to oldest in order...VS2000, 2400, 2480, 1824, 1880, 1680, 880.
Kanye West made some of his first tracks on the 1680. Many '90s hip hop, punk, and drum n bass records were initially thought out on these machines. Often once made the tracks would then be redone and played through expensive compressors and mixing desks. Nowadays you can get an LA-2A plug in on a computer and get that same beautiful sound as the physical box version.
I like the roland units because they have plug ins...I actually use an LA-2A plug in as well as an 1176 plug in. The selling points for me, were the timing, the plugins, ease of use, efx, and the pushing of one button and in 30 seconds the machine is ready to roll. No virus worries or upgrades that you have to pay for to enhance the OS.
Connecting any of these hardware recorders is easy...connect them via midi and then connect the output of one to an input track of the other. A caveat with "some" of these machines is that they are not meant to loop. So you are better off recording loops into them or cutting and pasting your tracks surgically for a loop sound.

Cheers,
Ian
spec's when you have two VS2000's:
16 analog inputs
2 spdif i/o
36 tracks (16bit 44.1khz) 24 tracks (24bit 44.1khz)
1920ppq (per machine)

@Wavemartians: Don't expect a lot from the effects, it's nice to have some in the box or if y'd use machines without internal FX or on band location to give it a quick impression.. Effects options are really limited, but do like the multiband compressor in the mastering section.
Also it's a bit tricky to assign effects, input compressors don't work as a track effect, but only in recordings.. Guitar amps are fun to play around with some fuzziness, but really needs the included noise suppressor working with it.. sounds pretty "thin" too.. but for the money of the complete box? It beats the standard FX of most budget mixers! But for proper compression i'm using a DBX and Compounder.. But for that non-computer recording the DP24 is really easy and productive! Track editting works a lot better/precise now(BAR display and editting is very helpfull), and it's fun to record and sync sequences from MPC to MTR tracks one by one, i don't have to sequence everything at first on MPC and bumping it to MTR, i now work "from" MTR, so the sound is "saved" and my idea stored.. Tracks by track editting is a breeze too, i hate to work with just the 4 busses of my Mackie desk.. still figuring out a proper way to record multiple tracks at once without double bussing.. But when done recording export the tracks to computer and make havoc with software FX & mastering plugs and yr DONE!

@Ian Canefire: Nicely said, bit too much PRO Roland i guess?
You mention "loop" recording with MTR's, i were looking for such and to be honest, for loops better buy a dedicated phrase recorder or loopstation..(OR just use yr MPC properly) BUT if you record a loop in the DP's and repeat it a few times, set Marker IN & Out in one of the middle loops and cut/paste it "could" loop nicely! The repeat function has a little delay at every restart, but if you paste a few yr already on yr way and start arming the next recorder channels..

@Maleh....I think I will make a youtube video of my recording process with the MTR Just to show how easy it is. Glad to see there are others using these machines.
cheers,
Ian

this is a really cool thread, i have been kind of wanting one to record a record on, but the sync issues are what bothers me.

most of these you can import multitracks to digitally though right? like via usb?

the roland ones sound cool beause o the plugins, can you add whatever plugins to them, or do they have a set of "roland" plugins?

have you guys found any of them with any good editing? or is it still pretty clunky on them? i think if they included a mouse on one of these, they could make it really easy to edit things DAW style.