Resampling: is it digital?

Wal Martian wrote:

Sharris wrote:If the MPC is digital, how would sampling while the sequencer plays make it analog?
Genuine question........

Just remember analog is audio, digital is data (1's and 0's)
Record input = Analog to digital conversion
Master output = Digital to analog conversion.

That makes sense (inputs outputs are analog), but once sampled into the 500 it becomes digital right?
So to keep it fully "analog" with the MPC 500, you couldn't sample correct?

& ALL audio is analog? Even audio from a digital synth? I know Digital is data, but audio can be produced by a digital synth can't it? Or would that not be considered audio, but just digital?

Honestly, it's not a big deal to me, if it sounds good, it sounds good, I have a mix of analog & digital, but these comments are peaking my interest. I want that knowledge!

Sharris wrote:That makes sense (inputs outputs are analog), but once sampled into the 500 it becomes digital right?

yes

Sharris wrote:So to keep it fully "analog" with the MPC 500, you couldn't sample correct?

i dont understand this question...a sampler is inherently digital - if you use a sampler, you are digital.

Sharris wrote:& ALL audio is analog? Even audio from a digital synth? I know Digital is data, but audio can be produced by a digital synth can't it? Or would that not be considered audio, but just digital?

at some point, yes.
the final destination is your eardrum vibrating, i wouldn't call that 'analog'.
before that, is a speaker vibrating, i wouldn't call that 'analog'.
before that, the signal is transferred down the wire as voltage - that's where it is actually 'analog' in the way we talk about analog vs digital audio.
samplers convert to/from voltage and digital data - but internally its all digital.
depending on how you get audio in/out of the sampler, that could be either analog or digital - but by the time it hits the speaker it is not digital at all.
a digital synth is the same concept as a sampler, just without an audio input necessarily (a sampler is in some ways technically a digital synth - this can get confusing because some digital synths and even samplers have analog parts inside them - for example the filter sometimes).

i hope that clarifies some for you.

That makes sense......... I agree with all that...... which is why I don't get the below statement. I might be readin the below wrong tho. How does this make it analog?

motosega wrote:although it is digital, theres nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc500 can play sequences while it's recording.

Sharris wrote:That makes sense......... I agree with all that...... which is why I don't get the below statement. I might be readin the below wrong tho. How does this make it analog?

motosega wrote:although it is digital, theres nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc500 can play sequences while it's recording.

I understand what motosega was saying but he means the Main Outs distribute out analog, BUT its still a digital conversion because the sound was converted at sampling. There is no Analog to Analog here to be considered the samples are analog. The audio itself as Tapedeck pointed out IS analog because the digital is converted to analog, but even though its analog, it already was tainted by the digital. I don't even know what the **** I'm talking about but thats how I perceived it.

But check it:



Lets say you sampled a vinyl record. The red line represents what an analog waveform looks like, because vinyl is true analog.

When you sample that vinyl record into a sampler, it converts to the boxy waveform that you see in black line, that is its digital conversion.

After sampling into the sampler, the true analog waveform is forever altered to the boxy waveform, no matter how many times you resample it. If its in the machine and coming out, it might be analog coming out the main outs but thats the form you gonna get at the end. A boxy digital waveform.

And thats why we say, its digital.

Capeesh

The picture Ill Green put up is good to understand. The boxy conversion from smooth line is different for bit depth and sample rate which is the reason some go for higher rates and bit depths like 24 bit, 96kHz or 48 bit, 192 kHz and dither down at final output or now there are speakers that accept digital input and convert at speaker level if your devices D/A converters are generally lower 18bit or 16 bit, but has digital output that might stay at 24 bit, it then gets converted at speaker level

Speaker manufacturers like Meridian will use 24 bit converters and 128x oversampling at 96kHz and will accept Ethernet, S/PDIF, or their own Meridian link cables and even upsample 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz to 88.2 or 96 kHz at speaker level.

What this all means essentially is the blocky line as digital has much finer resolution and begins to look more and more like an analog smooth line with higher rates and becomes difficult to distinguish from pure analog.

Any digital audio will improve in sound by keeping higher rates and maintaining those rates through the processing chain.

Some of us synth heads also enjoy it for analog modeling and particularly in filters which a lot had a zipper sounding effect as you stepped through the filter cutoff frequencies until they started making the steps increase and resolution of steps increase from say 128 steps from full open to full closed filter to newer tech using 1024 steps from full open to full closed. The little boxy steps get tinier and tinier and zoomed out appear smooth.

Oh yeah, I gotta say this too - I’m with Ill-Green on the I don’t know what the **** I’m talking about after a certain level. I get the basic concepts, but the deep science is beyond me.

Sharris wrote:That makes sense......... I agree with all that...... which is why I don't get the below statement. I might be readin the below wrong tho. How does this make it analog?

motosega wrote:although it is digital, theres nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc500 can play sequences while it's recording.

easy - he's saying if you plug the mpc500 outputs back into the inputs, and sample that, then you are effectively going from digital->analog->back to digital

i have no idea how the mpc500 playback works though so i'm not sure if this will feedback or what

Great info IllGreen & Wormhelmet. Basically what I thought plus a few extra tid bits

My conclusion after reading this thread - The MPC 500 is digital.

Inputs & outputs might be analog, but the second the 500 samples the audio it's digital.

So for now I'll just have to disagree with the fact that you can go analog with the MPC 500 (unless you don't sample into it).

tapedeck wrote:easy - he's saying if you plug the mpc500 outputs back into the inputs, and sample that, then you are effectively going from digital->analog->back to digital
i have no idea how the mpc500 playback works though so i'm not sure if this will feedback or what

If the inputs & outputs are analog, wouldn't it be - Analog to Digital to Analog?

& as far as I know plugging the ins to the outs would cause a feedback loop. But for fun, let's say, no feedback loop. Once it's sampled it's digital. So I still don't see how it can "go analog", but whatever, I don't care that much. I thought it was a simple question, but apparently.........no.......no it's not

Sharris wrote:

tapedeck wrote:easy - he's saying if you plug the mpc500 outputs back into the inputs, and sample that, then you are effectively going from digital->analog->back to digital
i have no idea how the mpc500 playback works though so i'm not sure if this will feedback or what

If the inputs & outputs are analog, wouldn't it be - Analog to Digital to Analog?

& as far as I know plugging the ins to the outs would cause a feedback loop. But for fun, let's say, no feedback loop. Once it's sampled it's digital. So I still don't see how it can "go analog", but whatever, I don't care that much. I thought it was a simple question, but apparently.........no.......no it's not

it is a simple question and i don't see what yer missing, but i'm happy to explain further.
its digital in the sampler - it comes out the output, its analog - it goes back into the input, it's sampled, its digital again.

its not the SAME digital that it once was, which is an important distinction...because once it went through the output, it lost all digital information. it's now a new digital signal - this is because of the analog stage colouring it.

you could prevent a feedback loop if you can mute the sampling monitor - again i dont know if this is possible on a 500.

if you did that you'd be resampling your tracks with an analog stage (the output->cable->input).

tapedeck wrote:

motosega wrote:although it is digital, theres nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc500 can play sequences while it's recording.

easy - he's saying if you plug the mpc500 outputs back into the inputs, and sample that, then you are effectively going from digital->analog->back to digital

i have no idea how the mpc500 playback works though so i'm not sure if this will feedback or what

Nah, it can't be done, but he literally means that you can sample while a sequence plays. Don't know what it has to do with this convo but thats one of the 500 secrets.

Ill-Green wrote:Nah, it can't be done, but he literally means that you can sample while a sequence plays. Don't know what it has to do with this convo but thats one of the 500 secrets.

The convo started because I was confused by this statement:

motosega wrote:although it is digital, theres nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc500 can play sequences while it's recording.

I understand the 500 samples while the sequence plays, but I don't understand how it makes it analog. I understand the in's are analog. I understand the out's are analog. I understand once sampled into the MPC 500 it becomes digitalized. So I don't understand how it is possible to keep a sample analog once sampled in the 500. That's it.

I hate to say it but tapedeck is raising more questions in my head (no disrespect, I've been reading this forum for years & feel you are very knowledgeable).

For example tapedeck mentions it becomes a "different digital" once sampled in the 500. I understand it's different, but if I sample my ms-20 mini (analog synth) into the 500, there is no digital until it is in the 500, atleast that's what I thought, but calling it "different digital" different to what digital? If there was no digital to start with? I must be missing something.

& plugging the outs of the 500 to the ins of the 500, you would just be sampling what is already inside the 500, which is digital. Yes the out's & in's are analog, so I get I would be recording "an analog signal", BUT I would be recording an analog signal of the digitalized sound inside the 500.

Hopefully the above makes sense. In my head, the in's & out's are analog, but once sampled it becomes digitalized. So I don't see how it's possible to have a fully analog sound when sampling an analog synth into the 500.

I don't think it's possible. I DIDN'T think it was possible. Which is why I was curious as to what motosega meant.

Simple answer: If it was possible to record the outs of the 500 thru the ins of the 500, I see how it would be an analog signal path. But your sampling the digitalized sound inside the 500. So to call it analog doesn't make sense to me. & per IllGreen it isn't possible to plug the out's to the in's of the 500 & sample it (atleast that's what I got from his comment, I could be wrong, I'm checking tonight just to finish this dialog in my head once & for all).

So if it is not possible to plug the out's of the 500 into the in's of the 500. HOW DOES SAMPLING WHILE THE SEQUENCER IS RUNNING MAKE IT ANALOG???????????

My conclusion: IT DOESN'T

Simple answer.

I didn't mean to drag this out & I actually got a lot of good info out of this conversation, hopefully others do too

& if anything I said above is incorrect feel free to let me know, I don't want to spread incorrect info (not saying anyone else did, I apparently just misunderstood).

Sharris wrote:I understand the 500 samples while the sequence plays, but I don't understand how it makes it analog. I understand the in's are analog. I understand the out's are analog. I understand once sampled into the MPC 500 it becomes digitalized. So I don't understand how it is possible to keep a sample analog once sampled in the 500. That's it.

a sample is never analog. period. its always digital. what i and the quote you reference were saying was that by using an audio cable, you are adding an analog stage, and therefore not REsampling purely digital. the original point of this thread was basically asking if thats what the resample function on the 500 did, or if it was purely digital.

Sharris wrote:I hate to say it but tapedeck is raising more questions in my head (no disrespect, I've been reading this forum for years & feel you are very knowledgeable).

no disrespect taken at all - its good to learn things. thanks for the respect at the end too

Sharris wrote:For example tapedeck mentions it becomes a "different digital" once sampled in the 500. I understand it's different, but if I sample my ms-20 mini (analog synth) into the 500, there is no digital until it is in the 500, atleast that's what I thought, but calling it "different digital" different to what digital? If there was no digital to start with? I must be missing something.

yea you missed the point that i was strictly talking about RESAMPLING. what i was saying was in the 500 you've got these digital signals. they exist and they can be copied a bojillion times and they'll still be the exact same. when you RESAMPLE using an audio cable like i was talking about, you add an analog stage, and so if you took a sample, played it back through the analog outs, then back in, and resampled, it would NOT be the same digital signal. sorry for saying 'different digital' - i thought that might be confusing. all i'm saying is once its gone analog, it won't ever be exactly the same.

Sharris wrote:& plugging the outs of the 500 to the ins of the 500, you would just be sampling what is already inside the 500, which is digital. Yes the out's & in's are analog, so I get I would be recording "an analog signal", BUT I would be recording an analog signal of the digitalized sound inside the 500.

yes

Sharris wrote:Hopefully the above makes sense. In my head, the in's & out's are analog, but once sampled it becomes digitalized. So I don't see how it's possible to have a fully analog sound when sampling an analog synth into the 500.

you can't - and i don't think anyone here was suggesting that.

Sharris wrote:Simple answer: If it was possible to record the outs of the 500 thru the ins of the 500, I see how it would be an analog signal path. But your sampling the digitalized sound inside the 500. So to call it analog doesn't make sense to me.

nobody's saying the sound in the mpc is analog - i'm not sure where you picked that up. in this theoretical scenario where you sample the machine back into itself via a cable, it goes digital->analog->digital. i just dont know where you picked up this 'fully analog' thing.

Sharris wrote: & per IllGreen it isn't possible to plug the out's to the in's of the 500 & sample it (atleast that's what I got from his comment, I could be wrong, I'm checking tonight just to finish this dialog in my head once & for all).

i'm really curious if this works (cause i'm a nerd) - i think it would be totally possible if you can sample while the seq is running, and you could mute the sample monitor. i dont have a 500 so i'm just guessing.

Sharris wrote:So if it is not possible to plug the out's of the 500 into the in's of the 500. HOW DOES SAMPLING WHILE THE SEQUENCER IS RUNNING MAKE IT ANALOG???????????

My conclusion: IT DOESN'T

i still don't know where you got that idea

This is where I got the idea, which I've stated in every single post -

montosega wrote: Although it is digital there is nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc 500 can play sequences while it's recording.

HOW CAN YOU GO ANALOG WHILE THE SEQUENCE PLAYS?

& I guess I shouldn't say "fully" before the word analog. To me calling it analog is analog. I added the word fully to get my point across.

I DO get what you're saying now tho tapedeck. The OP was asking about resampling & motosega was commenting on that point.

BUT, the OP asked “does the signal flow through the D-A converters before being resampled? Or is the function a Digital to Digital procedure”

EVEN if you could resample by plugging the out’s to the in’s, it still had to get sampled in the MPC 500 in the first place, so to me the answer would be yes, the signal flows thru the converters before being resampled. Then by plugging the in’s to the out’s you can resample in an “analog signal path”

BUT…….. if it is NOT possible to resample by plugging the in’s to the out’s,

HOW CAN YOU GO ANALOG WHILE THE SEQUENCE PLAYS?

This is my confusion.

But now I’m concluding that he thought you COULD resample by plugging the out’s to the in’s creating an analog signal path. & if you can? My bad. I’ll find out for sure tonight. Was gonna test it for fun last night, but my brother stopped by, so a jam session was needed.

Lastly, the OP also stated “The reason i am asking is that IF the resampling process is bypassing the D-A stage, resampling whole tracks and then transfering them to DAW via the CF card would be a killer option to get "rid" of the **** converters of the 500...”

If you cannot resample by plugging the out's of the 500 to the in's of the 500, how can you resample & avoid the converters?

& thanks for all the explaining tapedeck…………I 100% see what you’re saying. Sorry it took me so long to grasp, I don't think I was explaining myself right. Plus I’m way too analytical sometimes.

Sharris wrote:This is where I got the idea, which I've stated in every single post -

montosega wrote: Although it is digital there is nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc 500 can play sequences while it's recording.

HOW CAN YOU GO ANALOG WHILE THE SEQUENCE PLAYS?

by using an audio cable from the out to the in - just as homedude suggested.

Sharris wrote:BUT, the OP asked “does the signal flow through the D-A converters before being resampled? Or is the function a Digital to Digital procedure”

... so to me the answer would be yes, the signal flows thru the converters before being resampled.

yer wrong here - it only goes through the converters when you use the physical ins/outs.
if as we've discussed early on, that resampling on this device is strictly digital - then there's no converters, no analog, pure digital. the other guy was suggesting a creative hack to do this with an analog stage.

Sharris wrote:Lastly, the OP also stated “The reason i am asking is that IF the resampling process is bypassing the D-A stage, resampling whole tracks and then transfering them to DAW via the CF card would be a killer option to get "rid" of the **** converters of the 500...”

If you cannot resample by plugging the out's of the 500 to the in's of the 500, how can you resample & avoid the converters?

i'm guessing by using the resample /bounce function of the mpc. again, i don't know this machine that well, i'm only talking possibilities.

Sharris wrote:Plus I’m way too analytical sometimes.

i can see that

tapedeck wrote:

Sharris wrote:This is where I got the idea, which I've stated in every single post - montosega wrote: Although it is digital there is nothing to stop you doing it analog, the mpc 500 can play sequences while it's recording.
HOW CAN YOU GO ANALOG WHILE THE SEQUENCE PLAYS?

by using an audio cable from the out to the in - just as homedude suggested.:

As far as I can tell from IllGreen's comment you can't. Again I'll test it tonight & if it works, then again, my bad.

tapedeck wrote:

Sharris wrote:BUT, the OP asked “does the signal flow through the D-A converters before being resampled? Or is the function a Digital to Digital procedure” ... so to me the answer would be yes, the signal flows thru the converters before being resampled.

yer wrong here - it only goes through the converters when you use the physical ins/outs.:

AHHHHHH.......... so you would have to put the samples on the card instead of sampling it, right? This is the only way I can think of to get around sampling & I didn't see this suggested anywhere, so I didn't even think of that, I assumed we were talking about sampling, not putting samples on the card. I don't use a computer for music, so apparently I'm slow when it comes to thinking of these things.

Once sampled into the MPC 500 it is digitalized & that's that. So I didn't understand how you would get around that.

Simple answer: Transfer samples to MPC 500 memory card & resample the sequence by plugging the out's to the in's (if it's possible). This equals analog signal path. This is how you avoid the converters.

I hope I'm finally right....... after 2 f^cking pages of discussion........ I get it (I hope).