Multi-output instrument support

Ok, I see from the latest interviews that we have multi-timbral support for virtual instruments, but it is still a bit unclear on how multi-output channel of virtual instruments would be handled by the MPC itself.

I propose an option and would like your onions on the idea.

I keep reflecting on a program I use to use greatly as it was nearly everything I culd ask for in a Sequencing Workstation. Cakewalk's Project5 version 2 possessed the very ability I propose Akai implement to support whatever multiple outs an instrument may have.

I keyed in a specific time in the video link so that you might get an idea of what I'm referring to.

When an virtual instrument is inserted in Project5 which has multiple outputs, the workstation provides access to each of those by giving the user what is essentially channel paging.

You'll note in the video, the instrument called 'nPulse' shows the number '1' on the instrument track itself and is represented as Active Output: 1 on its inspector pane (to the left).

With the mouse or via hot keys, it was possible to cycle through the other output channel pages to access the independent controls for each, i.e Volume, Pan, Stereo With, effects, sub routing... ect.



Similar function could be created for the MPC to allow us access to all the outputs/controls to the virtual synth inside a plugin track.

Trying to get this looked into... I'm surprised no one has had anything to say about the subject.

I'm hoping you all can see where I'm coming from here. If you look at the way the MPC 1.3 is handling the plugin loaded, it would seem there's no routing available on the 'Plugin Track' to control the audio fader's levels/mixing, FX's plugins... ect. for individual audio channels of the VSTi in use.



If this is the case, there will be no true way to access each out of an instrument like Kontakt, Omnisphere or the UVI Workstation while creating your tracks. The way it looks is like each instrument within these plugin will output through one Audio channel in the Plugin track.


To provide an example:

You plug in FL Studio as a VSTi, FL Studio allows up to sixteen tracks to be sent to sixteen Audio Channel as partially seen here.

To handle this properly, the DAW (the MPC REN/Studio in this case) would have to treat plugin tracks as Multi-I/O mixers.

So if the VSTi sends 16 audio channels out, the MPC Plugin Track should provide 16 outputs to page through like I mentioned the old program Project5v2 did. That's what I'd expect anyway... And if it doesn't work like that, I can see being very disappointed

From what ive seen in the videos you just select the midi channel for the different instruments.

optik415 wrote:From what ive seen in the videos you just select the midi channel for the different instruments.

While you will select a midi channel to control the various instruments of the VSTi, that still doesn't have you handling the Audio for that instrument on an individual basis...

What it looks like is all the instruments, when playing back, will all be sent through the single output group of the plugin track... i.e. Output 1,2 - 3,4.

On top of that, there seems to be no way to control the Audio mix/FX side of a Multi-Out instrument. This, excluding any talk of the midi side of things.

The Ren only "fully" supports stereo plugins.

You can install plugins on each of the 128 tracks memory permitting. In 1.2, you copy a sequence that contained plugins, these plugins would be duplicated.....eating up memory. 1.3 eliminates this behavior. You can now copy sequences without duplicating plugins. This allows you to create multiple sequences and chain them together in Song Mode like you would legacy MPCs.

1.3 also allows you to create a single instance of a plugin and route multiple tracks to it. In other words, you can load up 16 instruments in a plugin and send 16 Ren Tracks to this single plugin. But these tracks are only MIDI tracks. And the plugin with multi-instruments is still only a stereo plugin.

The leading DAWs on the market fully support multi-channel plugins and their multiple outputs. They do this by routing plugin outputs to Aux or Audio tracks. The Ren doesn't have Aux or Audio tracks to route multi outputs of plugins to.

So your options are:
1. Create a single instance of a stereo plugin on each Ren track

or

2. Use a single plugin with multi-instruments...then mix within that plugin as most robust plugins have a dedicated mixer, effects, etc.

JAH wrote:The Ren only "fully" supports stereo plugins.

You can install plugins on each of the 128 tracks memory permitting. In 1.2, you copy a sequence that contained plugins, these plugins would be duplicated.....eating up memory. 1.3 eliminates this behavior. You can now copy sequences without duplicating plugins. This allows you to create multiple sequences and chain them together in Song Mode like you would legacy MPCs.

1.3 also allows you to create a single instance of a plugin and route multiple tracks to it. In other words, you can load up 16 instruments in a plugin and send 16 Ren Tracks to this single plugin. But these tracks are only MIDI tracks. And the plugin with multi-instruments is still only a stereo plugin.

The leading DAWs on the market fully support multi-channel plugins and their multiple outputs. They do this by routing plugin outputs to Aux or Audio tracks. The Ren doesn't have Aux or Audio tracks to route multi outputs of plugins to.

So your options are:
1. Create a single instance of a stereo plugin on each Ren track

or

2. Use a single plugin with multi-instruments...then mix within that plugin as most robust plugins have a dedicated mixer, effects, etc.

Agree with JAH

please don't trip, most (if not all) plugins that are multi output have a mixer and fx builtin.

Just use that for the time being until fixed, but don't stop buggin Akai about fixing the un-routable mixer.

I've actually brought this up twice in the threads with that exact video.

Honestly, as of right now, I'm glad 1.3 can do what it can do.
If this means muting some of the midi to plugin tracks during exporting to single out one of the instruments, and repeating that, I'm cool with that for now.

But yeah...most multitimbral instruments have eq fx available in the plugin itself.


Of course..I'd love to be able to route out the separate instrument audio to tracks...but as of right now, which is before 1.3 has even been released...i'm good.

I Agree , Don't ask too much people, this is already a great step forward

Maybe, one of these days in further other updates, multiple Outputs will become selectable like in any other DAW, sure, it should be great and logic.

The Third solution, is to run the MPC plugin as a simple sampler with the others plugging in a real DAW with infinite audio routing capability ( group channels, FX channels, inserts and sends ). But it imply other limitations, unfortunately...

Does 1.3 improves the plugin Midi controls, control multiple tracks of the plugin from the DAW Midi sequencer ( Up to 64 channels ) to the MPC plugin Finally Is there some mods on the plugin in this update

I had quite clear views on this as seen in the following post from my comment onwards:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=162939&start=150

I've been somewhat reassured that this will be addressed at some point. I'm just hoping 1.4 not 1.9..

You all can't be seriously using the REN with answers like this! This needs to be implemented to operate correctly.

Without proper implementation of Multi-output handling we are forced to work entirely too hard to do even simple audio stem exports of a multi-timbral instrument.

Perhaps there's need for a visual clarity here, so I created these mockups of what we should have available.


Shown here is an Audio Channel selector on primary plugin track (for quick access to the mixer channel of other active instruments within the plugin) which should be controllable via the hardware or mouse up/down gestures. Plugin Audio Channels Hidden


Plugin Audio Channels Shown


Plugin Audio Channels Hidden with UVI WS Mix Page


Plugin Audio Channels Shown with UVI WS Audio Page


What I'm attempting to show here is how the REN should make available a plugin mixer which matches to the number of instruments the plugin uses. Create another instrument in the plugin and another mixer channel becomes available in REN.

Channels should be accessible on the main plugin track via an audio channel selector and/or available via a SHOW/HIDE Button as seen in the pictures above.

There are numerous benefits to having this feature in place and even more consequences to not having it in place, so please think this through before discounting its importance.

Dude I don't think anyone will disagree with what you are saying, its obvious.

If they touch that part of the system they need to revisit the whole mixer architecture and make it routable, including selection to route 1 or more track to 1 or more audio outputs.

Whilst at it add a proper bussing system for FX and AUX Channels for audio inputs from other sources.

And yes, don't forget full plugin and bus delay compensation to go alongside all of that!

I think the multi-channel audio out must be difficult to implement (with software/hardware controller) because even Maschine after 5 years can't do it. I agree with you that we definitely need it but as far as right now using the Ren in plugin mode is the best way around this limitation. I think Akai should revamp their whole mixer to add:
1) Aux busses
2) side-chaining
3) audio tracks (where you could record audio on the track in a linear manner)
4) the ability to name tracks
5) the ability to route audio from one track to another track (similar to Maschine)
6) the ability to re-order tracks (i.e. move track 15 to track 1)
7) change the metering display to traditional display (no 0-100)
8 ) master volume control in the mixer (and automatable)
9) the ability to re-order the track insert plugins
10) unlimited sends (this is also tied to #1 & #5)
11) support for multi-channel audio VSTs

And also allow all 64 midi channels (all 4 midi ports) to be used to send midi out when in plugin mode.
This is a whole lot of stuff but if they implemented all of this you would see everybody's jaw drop to the floor. I like what they've done so but I'm waiting for a game changing feature (like when Maschine added VST support in version 1.6)

Hi everybody

Does mpc 2.0 handle vsti multi out now ?

Thanks