Exchange tips and tricks for the Akai MPC4000
By bleepfreak Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:53 pm
Do you know that problem? That after playing for a while the 'one' has moved from 01.01.000 to another part in the sequence?
I have this 'problem' now and I want to move all data before 001.03.00 to the end of the sequence and 001.03.000 has to become the 'one' 001.01.00.
The problem I run into is that I cannot copy data on sequence level / for all tracks other than on a whole bar. Or if It can be done I cannot find it just now.

Can anyone help me out here? Thanks.

Cheers!

By elmacaco Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:29 pm
Carefull, as the data doesnt wrap around the loop. If you shift back 00.03.00 you will have a blank space at the end. I went into detail on it a few months back somewhere here, you need to make a copy of your bars, then move it back then cut it back to the bars you had it at.

By bleepfreak Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:41 pm
Thanks for your reply Elmacaco, but I cannot find the thread you mention. Could you please explain again for me how I can move back data on all tracks at the same time? or could you point me to this thread??

Thanks.

By Altopiano Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:53 pm
yo bleepfreak ... if i fully got your question i think it cant be done - (at least as you and me and we all would like) ... sorry to say! at least so far ... copying parts of a bar for an entire sequence is a feature in our wishlist - and as i understood your question i think its exactly that ... so lets hope that sooner or later akai will implement it.

is that what your want at all? i mean - copying parts of a bar fór an entire sequence? ... if so the only possible workarounds which come up right now is what elmacaco described already (and imo thats only worth it if your beat is really really hot):

first off copy your sequence to a new sequence not to mess up the one you got (say copy to seq 2) . say seq 1 was originally 8 bars long - then copy the first bar from the new seq 2 to the end (after bar 8 ) of seq 2. then for each track hit erase and erase all events from 001:01:00 til 001:02:959 (1 tick before 001:03:000) for all the tracks.

then do the same for the end of the sequence (erase all events after ... ie: 009:03:00) ... but then you still got some problems:
1. 1 is not at 1 but at 001:03:00 and
2. the shit won't loop! ... there will be a break from 009:03:00 to 001:03:00! ... so imo this option is only interesting if your workin on an intro or so - where the following sequences will be different - coz if you work with that structrure on the entire song ... huuuh ... its a nightmare!

so - if in case you know the length of your song already - i d copy your original sequence as long you want it for the entire song (ie make it 100-200 bars long) - and erase the beginning and the ending just the same - this way you still got 1 at 001:03:00 - but you won't notice it (no break) coz the shit at least plays as if it were looped.

there s another workaround - the easiest but thats quite some work: go track for track and highlight everything and move it to 001:01:00 ... imo at the current stage of os this is sitll the best one. esp. if you got little tracks to correct - it takes up quite some time but at least at the end everything is fine ...

if you got many tracks then i guess there s no good way at all!

bottom line: i m sure you know those workarounds already. imo they all suck! ... so - depending on how far you are with your tune - i d either redo everythin, workaround it, forget about it or continue with it once the feature s implemented ... but that might take ages - maybe we will never see it ... who knows ... anyways ... good luck

By elmacaco Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:08 pm
it doesn't really suck, it's quite easy once you figure it out, the hardest part is figuring out how much to shift timing to get it on the one, 96 ticks being one beat.
By glide Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:53 pm
yep its a workaround,
if you know how to work the transport it doesn't have to do take too much time


-set up a locator at 1.03.00 :say locate 1
-go into "seq edit"

now its just a matter of a button pushing sequence you need to for each track

press "GoTo" (the locate window pops up
press F1 (locate 1) = 1.03.00
Press and hold:
"Shift+GoTo+Bar>>" to select all up to the end of pattern
Press Move (F2)
Scroll to 1.00.00
press do it! (F6)

press cursor block keys twice up (highlighting track in the left corner)
scroll up one track
Press Cursor Block Key Twice down (now your back in the seq matrix ready to repeat the prosess

even if you shift all 128 tracks it will still only take 10 minutes..
BUT
we've heard these before: zo for the OS list
All tracks Select (or ability to tag tracks) for simultaneous edits of tracks
and more flexible editing of bars (i.e. deleting section within a Bar)
[/quote]

By elmacaco Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:17 pm
oops! forgot I was on the 4k forum, it's 960 for one beat right?

ikke, HELL NO!!! I don't even want one, the 60 is king for me, such a nice flow to everything. but some things translate to all mpc's, so the old techniques can help even 4 k users.

what you rockin ikke?

By Altopiano Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:20 pm
elmacaco wrote:it doesn't really suck, it's quite easy once you figure it out, the hardest part is figuring out how much to shift timing to get it on the one, 96 ticks being one beat.


i think slowly i get ya. you r talkin bout shift timing? i got a question: elmacaco - on the 60 - is it possible to shift every midievent on different tracks for say 2 beaz ... using shif timing?

i just tried it on the 4k. we got slightly different numbers. 1 beat = 960 ticks. so basically on bleepfreaks example he were to shift evrythin 2 beaz earlier. so 1920 ticks - right?

well the maximum possible shift amount on the 4k is 239 if tc is set to 1/8. so basically i thought now to apply 10 times a 192 shift amount for all tracks - which were 1920 ticks. is that what you ment?

it didnt really work out so far - coz i were only able to apply shift timing once - so all events were 192 ticks earlier after shift timing - however i used shift timing on all tracks a second, third, and forth time but no further shif timing was applied. so i ll go and retry - maybe i did somethin wrong - ... for now i just wanted to know whether i understood the concept ...
By bleepfreak Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:40 pm
glide wrote:1)yep its a workaround, if you know how to work the transport it doesn't have to do take too much time

2)
All tracks Select (or ability to tag tracks) for simultaneous edits of tracks
and more flexible editing of bars (i.e. deleting section within a Bar)



1) Okay also thanks to you for your input Glide and Alto. I decided to dust of my old copy of logic and worked things out in the computer for now.
The only small problem i ran into was that the recorded trackmutes are discarted when a midifile is imported and exported into logic. :-( but it were only two or three events...

2) Did anyone send in that wishlist?? I can remember that thread. It had some good things in it. Tagging tracks and select all-tracks would be great for simultanious editing. You only really understand some of these wishes if you run into the direct need of them, right :wink:

Cheers!

By elmacaco Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:36 am
Alto, Shift timing can only work on one track at a time on the 3.10 60. the maximum shift amount is 999 ticks. The setting of the quantize has no bearing on this, is there something on the 4k in step edit where you can move notes like that? that's the only place I know where TC values have an impact on how other stuff works, (besides note repeat.)

You have to do each track individually, but once you know the exact amount it is pretty easy to do all of them, i think the most I've done is like 20 tracks, now I catch it earlier if that happens, but I haven't done it in a while.

By Altopiano Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:04 am
hy elmacaco - thanx for comin back on thisone ... much appreciated. i understood that you been referin to shift timin only on that previous post - anyways - that got me interested coz i never thought about that possibility so far on the 4k (... also coz it doesnt quite work the same as on the 60) - and for a minute i been hoping in an excellent workaround.

shift timing worx a bit different on the 60 as in the 4k imo - just from readin your post - myself hasnt been in the privilege to touch a 60 yet! on the 4k in step edit and seq edit you can open up the timing correct window. there you can set quantize from 1/8 to 1/64 (and its triplets) and then tc off (96) (which is bascically the same resolution as 2xl has, dunno bout 60 and 3000 but i guess they all got 96 ppq too) and then you got 4ks tc off which is 960 ppq. next to that there s the shift timing field (EARLIER or LATER) and its shift amount filed. tc and shift timing can be applied to single tracks or to all tracks at once on the 4k - great isn't it? (btw: with greatest respect to the 60 - you r sure you dont want a 4k? :lol: ) ... anyways ... the maximum shift amount value though depends on the tc setting you choosed. 999 for the 60 sounds great to me (esp. if you consider that the resolution is smaller) - 239 is the maximum shift amount i been able to insert at the 4k (which is only close to a 1/16!)

shift amount on the 4k basically worx like this: on the 4k a quarter is 960ppq, an 1/8 is 480, an 1/8 (3) = 320, a 1/16 = 240 and so on ... the maximum shift amount if you choosed 1/8 as tc = 239, if ya choosed 1/8(3) = 159 is maximum, on 1/16 = 119 is maximum. (its always half of the respective tc value and 1 tick less!). the smaller tc the smaller shift amount gets. on tc off(96) and 4k tc off ya can't insert any value for shift amount ... such a shame ... coz if ya could bleepfreaks problem were solved by insetting 1920 (EARLIER) - applied to all tracks and over! ... btw: i just been thinkin to ad it to our wish list - what ya think guys? ... inseting higher values for shift amount - should even be an easy one to implement ... and a big help for us in such a situation imo!

anyways - now - since on the 4k you can apply it to all tracks at once i thought - ok - if he has to shift 1920 ticks and we cant - lets just shift em 10 times per 192. should work too - shouldnt it? ... however i just did a simple beat with bd on track 1, sn on track 2 and hh on track 3 to check it out. this way i been able to shift in one touch every midievent on those 3 tracks by 192 back and forwards. however if i tried to redo it a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time nothin shifted any further - they just stayed there! ... so even if it only worked like this (multiple times) imo this were an easy workaround for that sort of problems too - inserting higher numbers for shift amount would be much easier though!

but i hear ya - there are other ways to achieve this - glides approach is excellent too imo (... i def gotta use those locates more!) ... and yeah - the sooner ya chatch those things the less work it is afterwards ... but thanx again for your input. ya know - imo - since the 4k is still in development sometimes its a bit hard to understand whether ya dont use a feature properly or whether the feature is just not fully implemented! i mean - i dont wanna complain coz its (nearly) all good now - but for quite some time i really often had that kinda questions: is it just me or the 4k? ... no doubt often it has been me, but quite often probs arised also coz of bugs the 4k had. if ya check out 4k os releases and our wishlist - ya notice that there are quite some things which were and some still are sorta halfimplemented. so sometimes its just helpful to know that things dont work or dont work yet or just work different as in previous mpcs ... that knowledge alone makes it so much easier to look for workarounds ... coz imo for almost any problem there are workarounds in the 4k - its the only mpc i used but i guess the same goes for all the other ones ...

.... most importantly bleep found his own workaround. probably the fastest one for now too ...

By elmacaco Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:13 am
Oh this is getting good. So shift timing is slaved to the quanitze? Is there a separate shift timing screen that's not in step edit, to just do all tracks by any amount?

The 60 doesn't do this, you can only shift individual tracks from what I know, but you can do any value and you can shift multiple times and it will move the notes everytime from my xperience, I suspect that it's a bug in the 4k, what does the manual say?

Sure he found a solution, using his computer, he shouldn't have to do that, it must be possible on the 4k, it just is obscured by having so much to navigate through, and the way you can get to the same screen in multiple ways.

WARNING, HUGE GUSHING LOVE FOR THE MPC 60 TO FOLLOW!!!!!

The 60 is so perfect, even the limitations on it are helpful to get you thinking, and you can do a lot more with all the tools than you think is possible. When I first posted the shift timing with copied to get stuff on the 1.1.1 thing I had other cats shocked. The 60 taught me that, I needed to do it, and in less than 5 minutes I was done, did it for the first time, one mistake when I assumed it would loopwhen moving,then I reloaded the beat and shifted again, and there it is. Done. there is so much you can do with just what the 60 has and just tonight I am using a feature that I've known about, but now it is something I do as part of the process, it just meshed right in to my usual workflow, it has a way of doing that, everyting is so immediate because the buttons for each menu are right there. there are some buttons that I still haven't even tapped, it will be years until all of it is part of my workflow, if they ever will be, but what is there I use to great effect and it gets it done fast. It makes me use my head in a way that makes me better at using my head, as well as better at using the 60. it's like magic for me.

The 4k has too many options for it to be as elegant and quick, even with experience, there is too much to choose from, and the screen gets to me, big screen, lots of small writing, although the MV is worse in that respect).

I know it's not for everybody, some people want different things from machines.

I used a friend's 1000 the other day, and I like it, I think it has some very 60ish elements to it. What I didn't like was how the pads are everything, and all this mode, shift, numeric and arrows, then soft buttons are utilized. After a while I was quick with the mode and pad stuff, zipping from step edit to the filters and the Q link sliders back to the sequence, but it feels like a compromise, a compromise to make it small, which can be a good thing, but over all, the cost to get that power left me quite unsatified.

I still like the machine, but is it for me, definitly not. the 60 has something about it that makes me make better music, it teaches me about stuff I've never heard of, it makes me create better arrangements, it doesn't clutter or stutter me, it just lets me move on to what's next. I've got other gear for filters and such, and that's a compromise I am willing to make to keep the elements of the 60 front and center. Would I like filters and effects in the 60, sure, but I don't want a 3000, I would want that in the 60, I'm not giving up my armrest!! Maybe another number in one of the menus, but that's it, if it means a change in the harware layout, I'll just use my analog filters, which is what I really want anyway.

So to answer your question, no I don't want a 4k :)

but if I get one for free I can sell it and get other stuf I want!!!

By Altopiano Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:06 pm
ok - elmacaco i ll comment within your post ... hope ya find your way through ...


elmacaco wrote:Oh this is getting good. So shift timing is slaved to the quanitze?


yes. its always half of the selected quantize value and 1 tick less - as i described in my previous post.






Is there a separate shift timing screen that's not in step edit, to just do all tracks by any amount?

no and yes. shift timing is a separate screnn. ya can access shift timing screen from either main mode, step edit mode or seq edit mode but the window is always the same. however you can move either one track at a time or all tracks at once within that window.






The 60 doesn't do this, you can only shift individual tracks from what I know, but you can do any value and you can shift multiple times and it will move the notes everytime from my xperience, I suspect that it's a bug in the 4k, what does the manual say?


i m happy you started to talk about bugs - i suspected so too when readin your posts. well - maybe not really a bug - but rather a limitation ... or not fully implemented yet ... dunno how to call it ...

so to sum up: basically the 60 can shift individual tracks, with any value up to 999 (which is much more as the 4k does) and you can apply it multiple times.

the 4k can shift individual tracks and all at once. the value is rather limited (239 ticks (only about a 1/16)) and ya can't apply it multiple times (at least i haven't been able to do so ... i been tryin quite alot last night!).

ya know its very helpful to talk with you about this. you dont use a 4k. since i and many in here use the 4k only we dont know how it used to be on the 60, 3000, 2xl and so forth ....

from the manual:
Shift amount field:
Specifies the amount of shift for the entire sequence, in tick units. The maximum value that you can set for this field will be half of the value you specify in the TC field.

i ll copy the entire respective chapter of the reference manual in the next post. some things are not fully up to date anymore - but more or less the important things on the matter are ok ... btw: thats the other thing that makes it a bit difficult on the 4k. nowadays i got about 10 4k manuals to check out if i wanna find out somethin specific ... anyways ..






Sure he found a solution, using his computer, he shouldn't have to do that, it must be possible on the 4k, it just is obscured by having so much to navigate through, and the way you can get to the same screen in multiple ways.


i fully agree. he shouldnt have to use a pc for that - this things should be possible on the 4k. again no disrespect to the 60 at all, but if things worked on a machine that has been developed 15 years ago imo it must be possible to implement those features at least the same on a 512 mb ram machine! ... anyways - meanwhile we got some workarounds - glide approach takes about 10 minutes - imo if we were able to insert higher shift amount numbers the problem were solved in 10 seconds.






WARNING, HUGE GUSHING LOVE FOR THE MPC 60 TO FOLLOW!!!!!



:lol: on your answer - i knew that somethin like this were comin. anyways - lnice read i hear ya on everythin: less features vs. more creativity, gettin better over time, analoge filters and all the rest ... its all good but i gotta say somethin to the 4k now too coz to me just the same applies to my 4k. one, two years ago when i got it i didnt expect it to be like this. ... man i m learnin somethin new almost every day (for example in this thread - i never before thought that shift timing/amoutn could be used to do things like that - well it can't yet but i ll send a mail to akai and i hope they ll listen) ... and - gosh - i can't believe it myself ... i m startin to love midi. nah not startin - i do love it! ... and the 4k is my teacher and my midi monster. ... and now i m even understandin why ya can do the same things on the 60, the 3000, the 2xl - they are monstersequencers - all of em - and to me those 16 pads have more to do with music than all softsequencers out there together. i got a midiguitar, a midikeyboard and i got softsequencers but the more i bang those pads the less i use all the other midi input possibilities i got ... those pads rodk for beaz, basslines, melodies, ...

well, in terms of use i think the 60 will be easier, probably coz it has less features, less knobs, more dedicated and intuitive knobs ... which for one may be an advantage for the other it may be a limitation .... so to me there is no better or worse - its just matters whats better for yourself. ... if i compare the 4k to the 60 the 4k has some bonuses to me - to name just some - sequencer wise (960 ppq), a great sampler build in, 24 bit/98khz samplin rate (that might not be a benefit for everyone - i love it) ... in the end imo it just depends how much you are able to adapt to the beasts strenghts and weaknesses. esp- on the 4k: imo you gotta find out what you need to do your music and what ya dont need. i really hear ya on the less is more - imo on the 4k if you wanna use all features to its extend - its not necessary and ... yeah sorta overkill - ... meanwhil i know that some features i dont need - some i might not understand yet for what they could be used. ... who knows in a few years maybe i ll be able to incorporate more and more features in my daily workflow .... but its still a long way to go ... and i ll stick with it - most likely till it falls apart ... you will stick with the 60 and thats all good, ... so lets just make sure we all make good music - coz thats what its all about - i ll give my best on the 4k. ... yo - but make sure to pass by in our forum once a while ... we surely need some wisdom from the oldies (.... mpcs i mean) ... for real. thanx.
Last edited by Altopiano on Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

By Altopiano Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:21 pm
ok - here is the respective chapter of the reference manual of the 4k. if your interested i guess you better download it from here http://www.akaipro.com/int/download/om_dload.html there you even see a pic of our beautyful timing correct window. its the file MPC4000ref_E.zip and the relevant info is on page 21 - chapter - Applying timing correction to an already-recorded track



Applying timing correction to an already-recorded track

You can apply timing correction to a track that has already been recorded. Executing this operation will rewrite the timings of the note events.

1. Play back the sequence, and verify the track, measure location, and range of notes (or pads) to which you want to apply timing correction.

2. Move the cursor to the TC field, and press the [WINDOW] key. The Timing Correct popup window will appear.

A TC field
Selects the unit of timing correction.

B Swing field
Specifies the amount of swing.

C Shift timing field
Selects the direction in which the entire sequence will be shifted. If you select EARLIER, the sequence will be shifted toward the beginning. If you select LATER, the sequence will be shifted toward the end. Use the Shift amount field to adjust the amount of shift.

D Shift amount field
Specifies the amount of shift for the entire sequence, in tick units. The maximum value that you can set for this field will be half of the value you specify in the TC field.

E Track field
Selects the track that will be affected.

F Time field
Specifies the start and end locations of the region to which timing correct will be applied, in units of measures/beats/ticks. Timing correct will not affect note data outside this region.

G Notes/Pad field
Specifies the range of note numbers/pad numbers to which timing correct will be applied.

H [F1] key (CLOSE)
Cancels the operation and closes the popup window.

I [F6] key (DO IT)
Executes the timing correct operation.

3. Move the cursor to the Track field, and turn the [JOG] dial to select the track to which you want to apply timing correct. If you select track number 0 (All tracks), all tracks in the sequence will be affected.

4. Move the cursor to the Time field, and specify the region to which timing
correct will be applied.

5. Perform the following operations as appropriate for the type of track.

For a DRUMS type track
Move the cursor to the Pad field, and press the pad to which you want to apply timing correct. The corresponding pad number will be displayed in the field, and will be selected for editing.

For an INST type track
Move the cursor to the Notes field, and on your MIDI keyboard, simultaneously press thehighest and lowest notes of the region that you want to select. The note number at the left of the field will be the lowest note of the range to which timing correct will be applied, and the note number at the right will be the highest note. You can also turn the [JOG] dial to change the settings of the Notes field.

6. Press the [PLAY] key to play back the sequence.
You will be able to audition the sequence with the timing correct settings applied.

Note: While auditioning, timing correct will be applied to the entire sequence, regardless of the settings of the Time field.

7. Adjust the settings of the TC field or Swing field to modify how timing correct is applied. When you are satisfied with your adjustments, press the [STOP] key to stop the sequence.

8. To execute timing correct, press the [F6] key (DO IT).
When the note events have been rewritten, the popup window will close.

Note: You can also execute the Timing Correct operation from the Sequence Edit page or Step Edit page.
You can return to the previous state by pressing the [UNDO SEQ] key immediately after executing
Timing Correct.