DAW Latency and the 4K

After much reading around the forum and a few months of trial and error I'm still unhappy with the sync between the 4k and Protools.

In order to track in now I've worked out a few tricks to keep my beats all locked up and tight (having the 8 outs and ADAT - boom problem solved!). But the lack of a good sync when using the MPC as slave (with MTC) is still a problem for me.

What's say you go into your DAW and open up an old track and decide you want to rework the drums on your 4K. you make the 4K the slave and start it playing or looping by starting your audio track in your DAW. working like this my MPC metronome is not in time with the DAW audio files - at all! it's way out! I would like to have the two locked together and be able to start recording a new drum beat while in sync with my protools session.

Does anyone else have this problem - I've been to all the digidesign forum sites etc and am fairly sure that I've made all the correct settings in Protools and the 4K - but still the latency is there? AM I ****? can this be done?

Cheers


Grassroots

is it latency or is it tempo syncing probs? also check your MTC, I think mine is locked at 30 make sure your 2 clocks are set the same.

Hi rookie,

Thanks for getting back to me man. I'm doin my best here and appreciate the help.

yes both are set to frame rate 30. An interesting thing I have uncovered is that in protools if you got into the setup section and open session there are some midi options there and it has a window that displays the incoming time code. In this little window protools is seeing the exact time that is on the mpc screen in the time section under the bars beats section above. However when I press play and stop with the 4K controlling the protools as slave the bars and beats are not anywhere close to being the same.

I have dug this information up and and have followed it to the letter - this is all the standard stuff - But i think I'm still missing something - any protools experts up in here?


For triggering the MPC4000 using MTC (MIDI Time Code) with Pro Tools as the master device: 
1) Use a MIDI cable to connect the MIDI OUT of your Digidesign hardware (or M-Audio if using M-Powered) to the MIDI In of your MPC. 

In the MPC4000: 
2) Go to the "Sync" menu. 
3) Set "Sync In" to the corresponding MIDI input port on the MPC. 
4) Set "Mode" to "MIDI Time Code" and "Frame rate" to 30. 
5) Press play on the MPC and it will now be waiting to receive MTC. 

In Pro Tools: 
6) Go to the Setup menu and choose “Peripherals…”. Click on the Synchronization tab and set “MTC Generator Port" to the corresponding MIDI output port. 
7) Go to the Setup menu and choose “Session". Set "Time Code Rate" to 30. 
8) If your Transport window is not already open, open it by going to the Window menu and choosing “Transport”. 
9) Go to the View menu and highlight Transport. Choose Synchronization and click on the GEN MTC that appears on the Transport window. 
10) Press play in Pro Tools and the MPC should now be playing along with Pro Tools. 
NOTE: (When using MTC, it is recommended to add 1 or 2 bars of pre-roll.) 



For triggering Pro Tools using MTC with the MPC4000 as the master device: 
1) Use a MIDI cable to connect the MIDI OUT of your MPC to the MIDI In of your Digidesign hardware (or M-Audio if using M-Powered). 

In Pro Tools: 
2) Go to the Setup menu and choose “Peripherals…”. Click on the Synchronization tab and verify that “MTC Reader Port" is set to Any. 
3) If your Transport window is not already open, open it by going to the Window menu and choosing “Transport”. 
4) Put Pro Tools online by pressing the Online button on the far left of the Transport window. This will be verified by a blinking blue online button. 

In the MPC4000: 
5) Go to the "Sync" menu. 
6) Set "Sync Out" to the corresponding MIDI output port on the MPC. 
7) Set "Mode" to MIDI Time Code. Set "Frame rate" to 30. 
8) Press play on the MPC and Pro Tools should now be playing along to the MPC. 
NOTE: (When using MTC, it is recommended to add 1 or 2 bars of pre-roll.)

Not a Pro Tools user myself, have been in the past.

A common error is to not use a dedicated midi input/ output for receiving/ sending midi timecode or midi clock.

In your case the 4000 has two midi inputs, reserve one for receiving timecode from your DAW.

Also it's important to recognize the difference between latency and midi lag, people often confuse these terms.

My two cents...

HI, yes I use a dedicated midi channel to go the digi 003. If i'm playing a plug in instrutment that is in protools triggering off the 4k there is no delay whatsoever. It's just the chasing time code/locking play together that is problematic in either direction. I kind of feel like if I could pin point the right question to ask I would probably know the answer - as it I still need some help? Suggestions please!!!!

okay, after trying midi time code, different frame rates ( not that this should matter) - both I and II midi ports in. And changing the buffer sizes in pro tools. I'm still suffering lag ( thanks for pointing out the difference between lag and latency).

My thoughts are that possibly the processor speed and ram in my Imac may be holding it back (as the 4K is always ahead of protools in the time line). I have a dual intel 2.4ghz processors and 4 gig of ram. Maybe my machine just isn't up to par - it starts sending timecode to the MPC and then takes it's microseconds to start itself going? What do you reckon - the two are linked properly but the IMAC isn't grunty enough to truly lock up. But i thought that they are synced??? shouldn't the mpc just be following the time code that protools generators no matter what speed the IMC decides to run at?

Anyone got anything on this idea?

Thanks all

Are you on Pro Tools version 8.0.4? If so, this is a know problem with the 002/003, at least on PC. If I were you, I would try trashing your preferences and database folders. Then redo all your midi settings and try again. Also, always keep your buffer at the same setting while tracking. Don't record it originally on 512 and then come back in a week and retrack the drums at 1024 or 256. I personally only record at 64 MB, 128 at the most.

Also, I know you probably know this, but just double check that:

Both Pro Tools and the 4K are set to framerate 30
Buffer is either 64 or 128
You're using 1 or 2 blank bars of pre roll before any audio is recorded
You don't have any background apps running
You are recording to a dedicated 7200 rpm external firewire or internal harddrive (not the OS drive, and not an external USB drive)

And check this thread: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=284457

Have you tried a dedicated midi interface like clint stated instead of using midi from the audio interface?

I use a AVP a midi timepiece by motu I use to have a sync problem if my memory serves me correctly all your settings seem correct & my solution is a simple one make sure in PT that your tempo is set to scale W/ the music being recorded. I'm sure you use a click track,I found that not lining up the 1/4-1/16th timing in the tempo field in PT offset the syncing of the two together just a few milliseconds off This just might work for you.

I would guess its midi jitter. if you look closely at what you record I would guess that it does not line up and also does not stay consistent in the amount of variation. Its one area where our modern cpus dont perform well.

Thanks for all your responses. Particularly the link to the avid forums discussion on sync probs. W/ protools 8.4 - seems there is a known bug there that delays protools by 26 frames (my delay is more variable). Some one on there posted a cool tip about recording the click track as an audio file and bussing it out of protools through an output channel and re-recording it back in through another channel as audio. you can see the delay time exactly and learn what your specif latency is - that could come in handy for someone out there and I will definatley be giving this ago using different buffer sizes and see what the effect is. Anyhow..


Have just come off a 17 hour day and have to go back to work in 6 hours so no time to play right now - will keep you posted when I get back to the problem at hand. BIG UPS!

grassroots wrote:Thanks for all your responses. Particularly the link to the avid forums discussion on sync probs. W/ protools 8.4 - seems there is a known bug there that delays protools by 26 frames (my delay is more variable). Some one on there posted a cool tip about recording the click track as an audio file and bussing it out of protools through an output channel and re-recording it back in through another channel as audio. you can see the delay time exactly and learn what your specif latency is - that could come in handy for someone out there and I will definatley be giving this ago using different buffer sizes and see what the effect is. Anyhow..


Have just come off a 17 hour day and have to go back to work in 6 hours so no time to play right now - will keep you posted when I get back to the problem at hand. BIG UPS!

Yeah, I just did this test the other day. My system, fortunately doesn't have this problem.

[*]create a new session
[*]create a click track
[*]create a send on the click track to bus 1
[*]set the output of the click track to analog output 3
[*]create 2 mono audio tracks
[*]set the input of the first mono audio track to bus 1
[*]set the output of the first mono audio track to analog output 1
[*]set the input of the second audio track to analog input 1
[*]set the output of the second audio track to analog output 2
[*]plug a cable from the physical analog output 3 of the 003 to the analog line input of input 1 (both in back of the 003)
[*]record arm both tracks
[*]record for 4 bars
[*]set playback/transport counter to samples
[*]zoom all the way in to sample level of a particular click transient (I always choose the fourth, but never the first; you can choose whichever one you want)
[*]with the grid set to a single sample, select between matching peaks in the waveform
[*]view the difference as "Length" in the counter


Also, I only did the test on 24/44.1.
64MB -


128MB -


256MB -


512MB -


1024MB -


2048MB -