MPC MIDI to DAW - Latency?

I'm in the process of setting up a small production studio in my place. Basically I have:

MPC 3000 3.11
Mackbook Pro w/ Pro Tools (and some soft synths)
a couple Analog synths

Basically, I'll be doing a lot of the work, sequencing, and sampling on the MPC. This will include sequencing external synths.

My question is: lets say I've got some track im putting a beat to. The track is in my DAW. So i make the beat in the MPC. When it's done, im ready to record it into the DAW. When I slave the MPC to the DAW, and starting recording, I feel like the time is getting changed...the slightest latency that's changing how the beat feels against the track.

I'm syncing them using a MIDI Sport, which i know isn't the best.

Basically I want to know:

1) will I nicer MIDI interface like a MOTU help?

2) Are there software settings in protools -- like delay compensation, that will compensate for the DAW having to send clock to the MPC and keep things in time?

A short but non-specific answer is that yes you may be able to find compensation settings within your DAW that might improve things but it depends on your timing needs and what type of latency you are getting. DAW timing comp will help with consistant latency but there is no way to compensate for inconsistent latency, or "jitter".

Same goes for a new interface. I've had MOTU MTPs around forever and while they are better than a lot of the junk out there (though arguably not "the best" -- but then you start going a bit beyond most people's price point) they still can't compensate for midi that's bad to begin with.

The best midi requires motherboard level integrated hardware to generate and handle midi properly. The problem is that modern Mac/PC DAWs do not run on such hardware. So a bunch of stuff has to be made up for in software, and this includes the midi clock. That method puts a basic limit on timing accuracy right there. That's not even getting into all the software transport problems that companies like MOTU have to put MORE software on top of to buffer and timestamp away all the delays that happen between the computer and interface after the midi is generated.

The way people get around this is to use an external hardware midi clock that syncs to an audio click track, since audio timing isn't a problem with modern DAWs the way midi is. Check out sites like these:

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/

http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html

There are others, but I don't have links at the moment.

I think Innerclock lurk around here now and then...

^^he speaks the truth - midi clock signal out of a daw has always left me disappointed.
you'd probably do just as good to set them to the same tempo and hope for the best.
in my experience, they stay together on their own.

Oh wow, thanks for the info guys.
Yeah I've experimented with various work arounds to keep things workin. Basically, I usually slave the MPC to the DAW while I'm figuring things out. Then when Im ready to record the MPC into the DAW, I just create an extra bar up top on the MPC sequence, make a 'slate' hit, and line that up.

But it's never quite right, but close.

The inner clock stuff is interesting. Unfortunately, I'm using a pretty minimal setup...just my Apogee Duet 2, so I don't have extra outputs to send to this device. Though I suppose I could just get some cheap interface to deal with sending the click to the Sync Lock. Not to mention the price (wow!)

thanks guys!

I assume the 3000 itself does not suffer from the same issues, right? For instance, let says the MPC 3000 is the master, and you slave the DAW, as well as external synths. Are there still big latency issues?

dtirer wrote:I assume the 3000 itself does not suffer from the same issues, right? For instance, let says the MPC 3000 is the master, and you slave the DAW, as well as external synths. Are there still big latency issues?

Generally that method should be less prone to MIDI jitter or drift. Even in best of MIDI worlds it's always good to put that extra bar in the front like you said. I wouldn't be surprised if the sequences line up better using that method with the MPC as the master.

Yes the 3000 should have a much more stable midi clock than any DAW out there. If you check out the Litmus Test sections on the Innerclock site they have stability measurements for both the Akai and Mansel 3000 OSs so you can check it out for yourself. The only question then is how well the DAW setup is able to follow it.

I agree it's silly to have to spend so much on outboard gear for such a basic thing a stable midi, but until the new Atari Falcon clone is 100% implemented it's really the only option out there for computer DAWs.

isnt logic master only?

It is, but I am going to start using pro tools this week. So it may be a different story.

AntonPD wrote:isnt logic master only?

Just out of curiosity, whats the story with the 'Sync In' on the back of the MPC?

The interesting thing is, the Innerclock basically takes an audio singal from your DAW, and converts it to MIDI clock, because audio timing is more reliable.

So can I just output click from my DAW to the Sync In on the MPC?

thats the ticket. send it a pulse. pretty similar idea to the innerclock but not exactly the same.

personally I never had problem syncing 2500 with live or mv8800 with live

It's strange, i gave it a try and timing was a little wack...seems odd, but maybe I'll give it another go. Seemed worse than MIDI Clock

ultra auris wrote:thats the ticket. send it a pulse. pretty similar idea to the innerclock but not exactly the same.

Congrats, you're about to drive yourself insane in an attempt to attain perfect midi sync. It's okay though, you're not alone. Most of us here have walked that line. Just know that we'll be here for you when you finally snap and say to yourself, "**** it, **** this **** shit!".

Use MTC when you can, set up you're DAW properly, or render each track to wav in your environment of choice, and Enjoy Life

...or spend hundreds of dollars to close that millisecond latency gap that most people won't notice anyways.

you have to play with the level and source to get the click in to work better than midi, but it will. midi out jitter on computers is wack and very noticable. Also innerclock is well worth the price. Ive had one since the early days.