Multitrack Recorder

So I recently purchased a Korg D1200 Multitrack recorder, I've been going the software route for quite some time, but my apogee one died on me. So I wanted to really go the hardware route and learn the old fashioned way cuz I respect and appreciate it (20) and record how mf doom(Operation Doomsday), madlib have etc. There was lag when I tried to sequence my samples (asr-10) to logic and so I would make the whole beat in the asr and then just record 1 track while muting instruments in one take and then throw it on my soundcloud lol. I have alright beats but they're in mono.

With the recorder, I want to have my asr-10 to create samples, save them, and then sequence it to the Korg, and create a new track and rinse and repeat, learn to mix and master manually (analog) with uncompressed 24 bit audio, and burn straight to cd to give to friends and family. I've been reading the manual for some time but can't seem to come across my problem: How do I put a count-in click? I have the metronome playing but soon as I press rec and play it just starts recording rather 4...3..2..1 and then record. And also for it to playback after the 4 bars are done as if you were sequencing on a mpc or asr, instead of just keep going. On Logic I know you would clip it easily and just copy and paste. But is that what I have to do here? And are there multiple options for me to do this task?

Hopefully someone can reach out who may still use or has used a multitrack today Korg or Roland or Tascam. Thanks guys I appreciate it

I am a big fan of multitrack recorders and I have used a few. This question belongs on the Korg forum.
I have read much about the problems with the machine you bought. However don't be dismayed, yet.
The best multitrack digital recorders are these in no particular order...

Roland VS 2480 (a great system)
VS2400 (the smaller version with a noisy fan but not as bad as articles say)
VS2000 (the only issue is that they make you buy the vga card:- which is actually unnecessary but makes work faster, my personal favorite machine I own two)

Yamaha AW2400 (highly underrated, very nice sound easy to use)
Korg D32xd (wonderful machine get the adat addition)
Korg D16xd (the little version get the adat if you want more tracks)
Akai DPS24 (the first one not MKII, huge, this has lots of bugs though, faders break, but the best sound of them all, can connect to Akai Aksys)

Roland VS1824CD / 1880 ( a nice simple solid machine, converters are nothing fancy though, works well for hip hop, would not use it for classical stuff or an Anita Baker type vocal, buy the VS8f2 effect card and you will be happy)

Roland VS1680 ( nice simple machine, nothing fancy in the converters, has a sound problem when using VS8f2 effect card)

There are other units out there and I leave them out for a reason. These are the best...you can make a pro track with all of them. You can make them sound better if you use fancy analog to digital converters and excellent/good mics. A Rode NT1A and any class A preamp, compressor with digital conversion and you are straight.

Might not be too late to sell what you bought. The key is all in the timing really. You just want the recorder with the best time no midi delays. Other than that you can get by on the sound of anything. Roland has something called RDAC ( a compression algorithm. I never use it even though it sounds very good and like a warm tape. I prefer uncompressed uncolored, what you put in is what you get out. All of the above are a great bargain around $500...though the Roland VS1880, 1824 and 1680 are right at about $250 or less. I got a VS1880 for $150.

Cheers,
ian

I had a Tascam 2488 neo and decided it wasn't for me in less than a year of owning it. Some of the lows I had with it were:

-Super slow processing when rendering to a wav.

-The recording would drop out while the neo was slaved to MPC using MTC or clock, it didn't matter. The neo as master worked fine though.

-Compressor settings were not typical to normal compressor settings. It was still workable but that always bothered me.

-Recording vocals was a nightmare. Doing punch-ins was the worst thing ever.

I'd pass on the Tascam digital MTRs. I can't comment on the other brands.

theNovice wrote:How do I put a count-in click? I have the metronome playing but soon as I press rec and play it just starts recording rather 4...3..2..1 and then record

if it can do it, it will be in the manual, if it can't - no big deal. just record with the first bar being your count-in then edit it out later.

theNovice wrote:And also for it to playback after the 4 bars are done as if you were sequencing on a mpc or asr, instead of just keep going

do you mean like looping over a set number of bars? the machine might not be able to do this - nor do i really understand how this applies to tracking. but anyway, look up looping a section in the manual, if that's what you are talking about.

these recorders are more designed to run on a long passage of audio. so you hit record, then you play the instrument for the whole song, then go back and do another track. sure there might be some 'punch in' type features but this is NOT a computer DAW or an mpc - so it might frustrate you to try to treat it like either.

theNovice wrote:learn to mix and master manually (analog) with uncompressed 24 bit audio, and burn straight to cd to give to friends and family

there is nothing at all analog about what you are talking about.
record at 24 bit and you are ok. cd's are 16 bit so it will get reduced later.

good luck - let the machines guide you and you should be ok.

Thanks guys. I'm not trying to track or midi up my asr-10 or mpc to the recorder. I just wanted to be able to turn on a count-in metronome, have an output from the asr into Line 1, then play the sample live (not creating any sequences on mpc or asr) as I do not like to quantize. Then go with the next sample on track 2, and so on but I think i will try and do that then if there is no count in, and i didn't realize i'd be able to trim the starting and end points of my recording to fit the 4 bars and move it back and forth. I guess I'll just try and play more with it and read more of the manual.

Ian Canefire wrote:Roland VS2000 (the only issue is that they make you buy the vga card which is actually unnecessary but makes work faster, my personal favorite machine I own two)
Yamaha AW2400 (highly underrated, very nice sound easy to use)

I'm currently working with a Yamaha AW16G which is quite capable but for me the interface is not very intuitive. Having the chance to cop a VS 2000 i lurked on these days can you tell me sth. bout its ease of use and maybe compare it to the Yamahas?

hi,
please note I did not mention the AW1600 only the AW2400. Two different sounding machines and also laid out differently. Plus the 2400 has better input electronics.
Sadly yesterday there was a VS2000 that sold on Ebay for $460.
To answer your question about ease of use. The screen in the VS2000 is wonderfully detailed and once you have the vga then you are using a larger screen with mouse style editing.
The trick is to learn the "from,to" and "in, out" for editing. Then you just write down or remember your points and move or copy sections of data around on the tracks or unto other tracks. (with the mouse and vga you would highlight drag and drop)
The only complex thing with all of these multitrack recorders is usually routing the effects. In the VS you have different routings and ways to get to access them. Sometimes you may want the effect to hit the sound as it comes into the machine but before you record the sound. Or you might want it the effect to be accessed after you have already recorded a sound.
I found the VS to be very intuitive because it has so many buttons. I think that in less than 10 hours someone could learn how to do every thing on a roland vs...they also have great dvd tutorials especially the one made by Plancton.
The more involved stuff like learning about compressors, and limiters and finding the sweet spot with an eq on various instruments and knowing how to mix you have to learn on your own and that takes time and practice and experiencing different scenarios. It is a very involved process. So don't expect to be Trevor Horn (my ultimate favorite producer) in a week or two.
Cheers,
Ian

Ian Canefire wrote:Please note I did not mention the AW16G only the AW2400. Two different sounding machines and also laid out differently. Plus the 2400 has better input electronics.

You're right, the aw16g seems to be yamaha's entry-level multi-tracker. Anyway i thought they might be similar in terms of use. The issue with my yamaha is working with it is very bound to menus and subfuntions. For a fast workflow i prefer instant access to the majority of functions. Also the only thing i personally record analog is vocals. Can the Roland be all that?
ah thanks by the way for taking your time

menus are present in all of the machines. the VS doesn't have many menus when you use the vga monitor.

Cheers,
Ian

@Ian, I'm on the look out for a VS 2000 series multi-tracker, hard to come by in Australia; i see from your list you have not included the korg d3200, do you have any experience with this machine, thanks

Well I have an MV8800 and a Tascam DP-01.

The MV is like the VS in its DAW department but a lite version of the VS. The MV prompts you to a screen when you're ready to record with options like Count-In and how many bars you want counted before recording actually starts. For your dilema, its best to record stuff as patterns since you'll be sequencing 4 bars, that way, the sound will loop after its recorded.

On the Tascam, its a little work but nothing brain-stomping. On that, you'll have to refer to the timing and write down the exact points of start and end, then set up how you want a section to loop. Its all on the panel so its just a button away instead of menu diving. Thats why I like the DP-01 because of its direct use and menu diving is minimal.

Between the MV and the DP-01, the MV is more flexible and gets from A to B in a heartbeat without much effort. The DP is always in use though, its like that car you use to go to work and shopping. Its lightless LCD screen makes advanced editing tedious so I have to have a flashlight most times, but its easy proceedures. The MV is that luxury model that stays home and comes out to flex some business.

I have no first hand in-studio knowledge of the D3200. All I know comes from reading up about it on the Korg forum site, and playing with it in guitar center (the music instrument store)
The deal is this...Korg made a bad ass machine in the D32xd and the lesser version called the D16xd. The D32xd was made for professional usage and when they made it they knew what was selling well and tried to outdo the Roland VS2480 which was the big seller. So they added touch screen and lots of effect and sends. The D3200 from what I read has issues. Go to the Korg forum and read the complaints. They added a few things to it but it cannot mess with the D32xd.
I try not to mess with the lesser models from manufactures too much, however the VS2000 I stand behind 100%. Getting a VS2480 buying the dif-at and then having a MPC 4000 with the 8 track digital option would be all you need. I am good with the VS2000 and without adat.
The ones I listed are the flagship machines for the most part and only the AKAI one is buggy. The D16xd can be obtained for very little right now...if you are thinking about a Korg you want one of these two D32xd or D16xd. You can get a compressor board for it, multiple input board, or even a tube addition (which people say is a gimmick like the one they put in the triton: I wouldn't get the tube personally I would get the extra inputs and the compressor)
I have been doing sound tests with the VS1880 and it sounds very good also the RDAC kinda sounds nicer than the uncompressed VS. Though it all sounds good no matter what. Once I heard that the D3200 had timing kinks I was not interested...read the sound on sound article about it. It was as if Korg wanted to compete with the Boss BR series but tried to make it more serious looking.
Don't let my words throw you off course..whatever you buy just learn it. What I wrote is a guideline of sorts. Don't get too caught up in the gear let the ear guide you.
Cheers,
Ian
PS here is the sound test....

hey ian, you seem pretty knowledgabel about these things.
the roland recorders can support plugins somehow cant they? can the vs2000 do this? would i be able to load my waves rtas plugins, or any freeware plugins onto these? i was thinking that then i could just insert them onto separate tracks and tweak them with the mouse just like in a daw. does it work like this?
another cool thing i had in mind was using an aux track, but actually having it be sent back to an actual fader instead of just a digital one! that would be pretty cool!
if you cant load plugins into it, does it come with included ones? are they any good? i make mostly 90's erea boom bap, so it snot really heavy on effects, buti do like to have a good 1176 style compressor for teh vocals, and a usable reverb at the least.

also, is the audio editing still nice with the vs200 model? think, vocal editing--probably to be done with the vga screen. i probably wouldnt buy one unless the vga port was included.

ideally, i would be loading completed multitracks from my mpc onto these, then just using them to record vocals over and add effects and bounce down to a 2 track mix. i suppose i could use the usb 2.0 to drag and drop whole folders into projects then load them up into separate tracks?

thanks man!

@ Damien...the roland VS2000 only uses plugins designed specifically for it. So you will not be able to use plugins that are on your computer unless you are simply recording what is on your computer into the VS.

When Roland made the VS2480, 2400 & 2000 they made deals with companies to write software versions of there products specifically for Roland machines. These plugins were made: Antares autotune, Universal Audio LA-2A, Universal Audio 1176, Soundtoys Soundblender, Chrometone amp, T-Racks mastering. There may be others be these are the ones I know and they are of good quality. I own T-Racks, and all of the UA compressors. I want the Sound Toys Soundblender one because it is amazing!

In order to use the plugs you have to buy an additional circuit board that goes into the VS. There are three circuit boards that one can put in a VS: VS8f-1, VS8f-2, VS8F-3. The plugins only work with the VS8F-3. The other thing to note is that once you buy a VS8F-3 and then buy the plugin software(which you load onto the card through the cd drive on the VS) and connect the two, they can never be unconnected. You can only load that software twice (they give you a backup) if you take the VS8f3 card out of the VS2000 then the VS2000 will no longer have the plugin. Also if someone were to sell you the VS8f3 card then they would also have to give you the plugin as well because it can not be loaded onto another vs8f3 card. They made it to be proprietary.

Roland is profitable because they do this sort of thing all the time. You buy an item and then they make you pay for add-ons. Many people do not like this. The beauty of buying these VS machines on the used market is that often you will see them sold with the VS8f3 card and the plugins. That is the best deal to get because individually the plugins are not cheap. Frankly you do not need them because you can always use effects from some other source. I stand behind the LA-2A on vocals and drums, and I use the T-racks as my mastering source. They are the real deal.

Before you buy a VS purchase the tutorial DVD made by Plancton get it in English. It is worth its weight in gold. It explains everything single thing that the VS2480, 2400 and 2000 can do.

The editing features are great for everything...vocals you name it. You don't really need the vga adapter for the VS2000 but it does make editing faster & easier. It is better to buy a VS2000 with the vga card and any VS with the vs8f-3.
The VS2000 has a usb port and you can load your sounds into your computer the wave editor will convert the sounds and you can put music unto your compuere or vice versa. I do not use this feature.

Cheers
Ian


PS the VS2000 also has a drum machine in it which is a watered down version of the Boss DR-880...and I never use it. The VS2000 also has a harmonizer in it which is a watered down version of the boss VE-20...I do not use it either though it works fine. The VS8f-3 by itself without any plugins loaded into it has additional effects which are the bomb! I use them all the time. Getting it for the effects alone is a good thing. The VS8f-2 has some effects as well but the technology got better and thus they made the newer card the vs8f-3. I have both cards in my machines.

ah, ok that clears alot of things up for me then, thanks ian.
i was kinda scratching my head when i was reading that someone had an 1176 and a LA-2A plug in in it.

how do you go about tracking into it on your mpc? do you just make a couple passes with the 4k via the optical outs? or do you use the line outs? i would be using the line outs and would probably have to make 2 passes, sometimes 3 (because my mpc 1k has only 4 outs, but i can utilize the main outs as well)
have you ever had any sync issues when making multitple passes? do you just use a reference track ie a clap or snare at the start of each track, then make sure their lined up in the vs2000 afterwards? or do you use the mtc and such? i havnet really done that so im not too familar, but im sure it wouldnt be too hard.

i was reading about the drum machine, i probably wouldnt use it much either, but it might be cool in the off chance that i need a backing track. so if i get one with the vs8f, will it automatically have all those plugins, or it will just support those plugins? im mainly thinking i want the 1176, and possibly the t-racks. the la-2a would be nice too, but i really want the 1176 as i am more used to them.
if it doesnt have the t-racks specifically, i suppose after im done mixing a song, i would just print a mix to the 2 track, save it to a folder, then drag it out via usb and master it in my daw, correct?
will it work that way? or would i have to burn it to a cd, then import the audio file that way.

ive read that one of the older VS models couldnt dither from 24 bit to 16 bit, so you couldnt convert your 24 bit sessions to a cd, is this the case with the vs2000? is the workaround for that to just print your 24 bit session to the usb and drag and drop?
i probably wouldn't be using 24 bit that much anyway because my mpc is 16 bit, but maybe sometimes i might want to import a 24 bit session.