synth plugins: getting them to sit with "real" instruments??

it's funny that i'm bringing this back up because i've offered tons and tons of advice on this subject in the past... however in the last couple months i feel like my ability to blend synths (other than basses) into my mix has deteriorated dramatically.

my music has gravitated toward a pseudoacoustic sound, not intentionally. i love synth beats! i really wish i could make them better, but whenever i use synths to write the first melody of a song it always sounds...lifeless.

so, i always start with chopped samples and work other stuff in. this stuff tends to be modeled acoustic instruments and basses. occasionally i'll sneak in synth stuff but it's almost NEVER central melody stuff - always fluttery background noises and texture.

i can get that stuff to sit well, because it's usually far out in the mix. but what if i want to use a synth when i drop out the lead sample/melody piece i've written? it never seems to FIT, and the issue isn't necessarily my mixing ability - it's my lack of control over the humanization of the sound of the synth.

some would say to use a more unpredictable, textured synth like some Massive or Olga patches. those are good, but i want to have better control over the unpredictability. surfing patches is how i start, and then i tweak and tweak until something fits.

rant over, anyone who uses synth instruments or plugins centrally in their songs, please contribute.

I think the thing is when sampling you've got a lot of layers of sound, from the original recording that was processed, to the sample being mastered, to the pressing, to the extra sound from the turntable etc... On top of that you have your own processing.

It's layer after layer of being run through devices. Each adding a nuance of some sort, even random noises that occurred during the original recording that's barely noticeable but it all adds up. Not to mention that 9 times out of 10 we're sampling very good musicians.

By the time it's finished with the sample is full of character.

I suppose you'd get that texture more through the use of analogue gear, or at least something outboard. In the box is great because it's stable, but you know you're getting the exact same every time.

What I tend to do is layer sterile sounds up with noise (white noise, record noise, anything), and then sidechain them. So the original synth is moving the noise around. It suggests movement with the sound without taking too much clarity away.

I also tend to muddy things up by overdriving certain frequencies, and occassionally I will knock a little bit of the top end off because I really don't like a bright top end.

In regards to the "lifeless" comment its stuff you most likely already know.

Tweaking sounds, processing them, and most importantly layering them. Also signal flow places a big part. If you can have those soft instruments (computer based) leave your computer and touch D/A A/D at some point it will improve. Or like I mentioned above some sort of internal signal process.

Also, I have sat there and thought to my self this sound or group of sounds is unusable and then had a pianist or hardcore key player sit down and prove me wrong with absolutely no processing what so ever. lol.

Sorry if its obvious stuff to you but I would try layering more parts and then mix or scale your way in and out to achieve better results in the software instrument environment.

Reduce filter resonance, that tends to make synth sounds even more synthetic. Use the synth's built in lpf (or a filter plugin) to reduce some of the unnatural highs that aren't there in most acoustic instruments. EQ: try cutting around 7k and cutting or boosting (depending on the sound) around 2.5k. If you have a guitar amp or home stereo, route the synth through it and stick a mic in front of it (or use a guitar amp plugin with little or no distortion/overdrive). If you have any outboard colorboxes (mic preamp, DI, effects, samplers,cassette deck, etc,) try those. Even your 1k could possibly help. It also helps to match ambience so that your sample chops, acoustic instruments, and synths gel a little better.

Mimic the expressiveness of acoustic instruments. Use velocity, expression, modulation, the modwheel, and pitchbend to make it sound more like an acoustic performance. You may have to reroute the modwhee to something more usefull, depending on how the patch is configured.

There's a lot of 70's music featuring synths next to acoustic instruments. If you listen to some of that stuff you start to get a feel for what works and what techniques musicians and engineers used to make it fit.

I have a couple older synths (Akai AX80 and AX60) and I find that it's a little easier to fit them with samples and/or acoustic instruments tonally, but it's still work to make them more expressive.

My suggestion on top of all the others is to turn down the soft synths and maybe place a lo pass filter on them to cut some of those ultra crispy highs.

I always always always turn down elements that stick out too much, way to low to start with and bring them up slowly until it finds its place in the mix. Then pan it left or right, or left AND right.

If it still sounds like its sticking out, throw a lpf on it and tame it some. Add a little touch of reverb or delay to taste, or double it, and put a little chorus on one and turn it down some.

This track is all samples except for the main melody. I basically did everything above, except for the panning as it is the main element of the track.

It was actually from an Akai AX-60, but the patch originally was very bright and shiny. I made it sound like this during the mix...

eqing, filtering off high end, etc are all things i'm aware of for sure and have done with limited success. nothing cuts through an organic mix more than unnaturally high synth frequencies. thanks for posting this.


i like the sidechained noise idea a lot. i'll also probably experiment more with subtle vocoding. seems like a lot of work late in the game but it could definitely make the sound breathe a little more.

cozy, you mention turning it way down and gradually bringing it up, then eqing, then fx etc. this is exactly how i end up with this background texture synth stuff instead of front and center, bam, here's ya melody synth stuff.

extra hardware is not an option right now.

layering is a good strategy. one criticism i have of reaper (most daws, actually) is its reluctance to adopt a truly modular FX mode ala bidule or energyXT. layering would be a lot easier this way. my bassline from "right here and now" is one of my favorites, and that was created using layered elektrostudio micromoon and esline vstis.

trilian is cool, but i don't want all my basses being acoustic.

Nym wrote:
cozy, you mention turning it way down and gradually bringing it up, then eqing, then fx etc. this is exactly how i end up with this background texture synth stuff instead of front and center, bam, here's ya melody synth stuff.

extra hardware is not an option right now.

Its the same philosophy though. It just may be that because it is the central element of the track, it will be turned up a little more. Similar to a vocal track, unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are trying to do.

Could I hear an example of what you are working on so I could get a better idea as to what you are trying to achieve? I'd like to hear exactly what you are having a problem with.

Actually, if you are willing, you can send me the wav tracks with an explanation of what you are trying to do and I will see if I can figure it out and get you some better information.

edit: and if you were telling me that hardware isn't an option, I just made mention of the synth I used so you knew where the sound came from. In my experience, the technique is the same with soft synths and hardware. I use that Animoog synth on the iPad and mix it in with samples.

good info here

what you can also do, is sample your synth melodies
in my case that triggers other choices
and it allows you to chop them, acting like another 'layer' of treatment
sometimes, it takes choppiness to fit (in my beats anyway )

Nym wrote: whenever i use synths to write the first melody of a song it always sounds...lifeless.

Probably asking the synth patch to do too much.
Use counter rhythms and syncopation along with realtime manipulation to create big full of life synth lines.

You will get the best results if you not only layer synths but scale them to different parts of the synth line.

Nym wrote:

extra hardware is not an option right now.

Why would you need extra hardware? Think about your signal flow and what gear you currently have. You cant reroute to have have your software based instruments pass through your mp? No VCR or tape deck? No audio mixer? Crap laying around the house? Sure a dedicated piece would be great but completely not needed. Creativity, layering, processing, and signal flow. Everybody hears the words and says yeah yeah yeah, but forgets to apply the fundamentals.

Re-amping was mentioned above, which is great advice. Also another example of signal flow.

I think reverb plays a big part in this. Samples often have their own ambience, however synths are very dry sounding.
I'm no expert but here's a technique i've been experiementing with:

Try setting up some effect sends with
1. a fat sounding, short plate reverb
2. A longer, larger roomy reverb
3. A short slappy delay

Note: **Predelay is a majorly slept on setting**

Then experiment with blending between these sends with your different tracks to give your mix a certain 'spatial' characteristic.
For more in your face sounds, try the plate with a sprinkle of room. For your drums maybe the slapback gives some vibe. Use the room verb to cover up more static & stale sounds etc etc