Phono Preamp, DJ Mixer, etc.

I know there is a pretty big consensus that a dedicated preamp is going to give you a better quality of sound transfer than a DJ Mixer of the same monetary value.

My question: is the quality that a turntable with digital outs proven to compete with the quality of a standard phono preamp?

What are some pros and cons with choosing a phono preamp, a DJ mixer, or a turntable with digital outs?

Obviously, the end goal is the "best sound quality" I can achieve from a vinyl record.

Also, I'm not looking for advice on needles (I know that they are equally important).

However, if you DO have advice on turntables, shoot!

my advice would be to not worry too much about it and just do it.

there are so many factors that come into play, and such a wide range of 'quality', that you really just need to find what works for you.

for example: record quality, needle quality, cartridge quality, motor quality, belt quality, tonearm quality, preamp quality, mixer quality, interface quality, processing, eqs, etc etc....there is SO much going on that just getting a nice preamp wont even matter if your needle still sucks.

so forget about making it perfect, and just find something that works.

the advantage of a dj mixer is the faders + eq. the advantage of a standalone preamp is probably a flatter response. the advantage of digital means no other stuff to colour the signal.

i use digital but that's mainly convenience - i can always colour it later. i've also used a vestax mixer which sounds good and i like using the eqs + i can sample scratches.

see what i mean?

I understand that there are many factors, but I don't agree that I should just "not worry about it." People who know better don't just "not worry about," because they know better.

That's essentially what I'm here for: knowledge.

Minamoto wrote:That's essentially what I'm here for: knowledge.

point taken, and good on you.

im just saying its easy to miss the forest when yer starin at the trees.

asides from that, i dont know what sort of knowledge to disseminate, ya see? i cant generalise all preamps, dj mixers, and digi-turntables to compare them against each other. they each offer their own advantages / disadvantages and it's more about your use and your environment that will dictate which is a 'better' decision.

ok instead of gettin all zen with ya i'll offer a couple tips i have come to find true. of course with every single one of these there is always exceptions.

1) you often get what you pay for - i used a cheap gemini mixer for years and when i got a vestax, it blew me away how much clearer my sound was*.

2) consider the market. is your table designed to be idiot proof, so anyone can use it? or is it designed for a professional? a professional wouldn't settle for a sub-par system, an average user might*.

3) there will always be something 'better'* out there, so the 'best' is as good as you can make it, at that time.

4) most audiophiles will tell you a belt drive is the way to go for quality. most audiophiles will say curved vs straight tonearm. most audiophiles are jerks**.

*high price DOES NOT = professional / quality gear!!!
**ok not most, just some.

Haha! Excellent reply, good sir!

Also, in reading your last post, it's quite easy to see that my original post is pretty broad (especially considering you can spend $50 on a preamp or $6000, heh).

While price is not exactly indicative of quality, I will say quality is generally indicative of price.

I know there are certainly exceptions (for example, one of the world renowned exceptions for the compressor quality-to-price ratio is the FMR RNC and the FMR RNLA, both used in multimillion dollar studios, both under 300 USD). But the trend is still noticeable. There's a certain "VIP Entrance" when it comes to pricing.

For a DJ who wants to scratch and beat match (not me, but just for example). The Technics 1200 is a good example. Anyone can buy a turntable; that same 'anyone' can go and get one for $50. But the one who buys the T1200 is going to be that many steps ahead in CAPability (not ability) of the person who buy the $50 turntable. In this example, let's say $400-$500 USD is the "VIP Entrance".

I guess my, now revised, question is: what's the "VIP Entrance" in terms of price and quality for DJ mixers and phono preamps. I'm not looking for, as you mentioned, "the best", I'm more looking for "the sweet spot I might be willing to stretch for". But if it's some shit that's going to change my audio by 1.2%, you're right, I don't give an audiophilic shit! Ha.

Also, if you know of any anomalies that fall under the "exception" list as far as turntables (for sampling) and preamps (for sampling) are concerned, I am much more excited about those!

now we're getting somewhere.

im getting the impression that, you are not into scratching, have capabilities for a digital input, but yer afraid to jump onto that boat for fear of losing quality by trusting the internal preamp on a digital vs an outboard preamp on a normal analog table.

my advice would be to get on the hunt, craigslist electronics section, flea markets, garage sales, find a table that looks nice (if it was taken care of, it might be for a reason), and then just snag any vintage preamp you can find, or a decent dj mixer. i dont think any dj mixer is going to have 'worse' preamps than any decent standalone, until we start talking spending real money. again, consider the market, maybe avoid any colorful 'look at me im a dj!!!' type mixers and stick with the professional - this will get you going and you will get some firsthand experience on what you like / dont like. again, 'best' is not really attainable here, only 'accuracy' - and since part of your process is going to be altering the source anyway, does accuracy really matter? (ie. if you get a dj mixer you can tweak the eq)
eventually you will talk to people, try out things, and learn what kind of things to look for - or i can just tell you that a 1200 and a vestax is a the way to go, but do i really need to?

unfortunately, i cannot comment too much on digital turntables as i only use one. to my ears, the digital out is nothing special, but it's flat, clean, and convenient. this works for me and might for you.

Minamoto wrote:Also, if you know of any anomalies that fall under the "exception" list as far as turntables (for sampling) and preamps (for sampling) are concerned

well by exceptions i meant, sometimes you can find something for cheap even though it's totally legit. example, i recently scored a great mixer that wasn't advertised well and looked jacked up - to most it looked like a mixer with a broken fader but ive fixed faders on tons of gear, so to me it looked like a good deal.
the other end of the exception list is the stuff that costs a lot but isn't really that special - it's not always bad gear, don't take it that way, but imo it's not worth the prices they pull. $1000 might get you flashy lights and a decent mixer, but $1000 might also get you a minimum-frills mixer with a ton of character and top-notch sound.

the used market is generally a good indicator of 'worth' as the stuff has been around the block and people don't have marketing teams. so you can use that to gauge what's 'good', then look for a deal when it pops up.

personally, i would avoid ebay, as you're likely to just get market value on something that might have been broken the day before it started working again and was put on ebay 'in full working order' (i only say this cause i know people who've done it).
get out in yer community and freak out the old timers.

finally if you really just want name dropping:
technics, ecler, vestax, thorens, dual, allen+heath - by no means exclusive and not all inclusive

My 2 cents...

I have tested a few different things since i'm into vinyl. From my own experience, if you want the best sound, go for a dedicated phono-preamp.

It is true that vintage amps sometimes have good phono-pre's, but i've yet to hear one that sounds better than a cheap dedicated phono-pre.

I have also tried an Ecler Mixer in mint condition, which didn't exactly impress me. Same as with the hi-fi amps here, i believe a dedicated phono-pre will give far better results. I have also read comments from people who finally went for a dedicated one, like: "i always thought my Rane mixer had decent phono-pre's, oh how wrong i was....", etc.

The problem is, with dedicated phono-preamps you're getting into the territory of audiophiles and their products... which can be a money pit, and a lot of "snake oil" (or what's the term for that? bogus products that promise quality and do nothing in fact). I wouldn't spend more than a few hundred bucks, that's for sure.

I've posted this before on this forum, but i can really recommend the Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre! Go read some reviews and compare it to other preamps in the same league, and you will find that it gets nothing but praise, and people even claim it sounds as good as many units that sell around the 1k mark or higher. Get it now, thank me later.

As far as turntables go, the SL1210 really isn't a bad choice. I've even seen audiophiles with much more expensive systems who had to admit it's not a bad system actually. Start out with a 1210 in good condition, align it properly (also the cartridge) and upgrade it later if you feel the need to (there's many modifications available for the 1210 that'll make it into a much more "audiophile" turntable... google "new mike").

You said you didn't want advice for cartridges, but i'll mention it anyway in regard of the 1210 (cartridge should always be chosen in relation to the turntable it's gonna be used with). A non expensive way for a good cartridge without going the audiophile route is a shure M97xe that you can upgrade with a JICO stylus later (which is supposed to make a night/day difference).

Another thing that will make a huge difference is records in good condition that are properly cleaned and dust free.

jibber wrote:It is true that vintage amps sometimes have good phono-pre's, but i've yet to hear one that sounds better than a cheap dedicated phono-pre.

just want to clarify, i was not suggesting op get a vintage 'amp' - i think i clearly said 'preamp'. i agree with jibber here - a dedicated pre will likely be of higher quality than a built-in consumer receiver type deal.

jibber wrote:I have also tried an Ecler Mixer in mint condition, which didn't exactly impress me.

here though we differ, i think eclers sound great.

My mistake then, should read more carefully...

And regarding the ecler, i didn't say it sounded bad, not at all. Only that compared to the dedicated phono-pre's i've heard, it sounded thin as well (like all the hi-fi amps built in phono-pre's i've heard before).

The Cambridge 640 (at 179 USD) is a pretty good buy, and also completely within my budget. On top of the fact that it seems to get exceptional reviews across the board.

The 1210, on the other hand, is a bit steep for my budget. Would a 1200 not be viable? I can easily get a 1200 Mk3 for around 500 USD, which is about the limit of my budget for a ttable, as I have plans to purchase many other things for my revised workflow.

What's the least expensive turntable you know of that provides decent performance?

Also, from about two years ago (as a Christmas gift) my girlfriend got me a Shure M44-7 cartridge/needle; it still hasn't even left the original packaging. Is the M44-7 viable for sampling?

Yes, opposed to many audio products out there, the cambridge phono pre is indeed great value for the money you pay.

In my opinion, if you search around a little, it should be no problem to find a 1210 for 500 bucks. I personally wouldn't pay more... but i didn't exactly follow the used prices in the last two years. I thought 500 would be the upper limit for a 1210. Unless it's like brand new. Anyway, an MK3 would be just as good IMO.

The M44-7 is basically a cartridge designed for scratching, but i'm sure it would be just fine for sampling as well.

Minamoto wrote: Is the M44-7 viable for sampling?

totally, it is a legit cartridge.

it is not as 'flat' as some others... it has loud bass and loud highs in a pleasing way.

they also last forever.

finally, if you do want a flatter response, you can simply use a stylus from a 44g on the cartridge of a 447 and it will give you more accurate sound. in my experience the 44g styli are much more delicate and wear out faster.

Is there a compatibility issue with particular phono pre's and cartridges? For instance, will the M44-7 work properly with the Cambridge 640?

Minamoto wrote:Is there a compatibility issue with particular phono pre's and cartridges? For instance, will the M44-7 work properly with the Cambridge 640?

M44-7 works with Cambridge 640, but M44-7 would be a bad choice if you are after good sound quality. (I used to own M44-7. It is great for turntablists, but not for audiophile.)

You should at least go for Stanton 680, which you can also use it for DJing as well.

Actually you should go for Shure M97xE, I just checked amazon.com, and it is sold less than $60! This is better sounding than Stanton 680.

I think Cambridge 640 should be pretty good phono preamp, but you may not have to go that far. Even Audio Technica's small phono preamp would give you pretty decent sounds.

Generally a cheap phono preamp wins inexpensive DJ Mixer for sound quality, because with a phono preamp, the signal won't contaminated with pots (volume control, EQ, faders). Instead, you get the audio signal straight from preamp, that fact alone would contribute better sound quality.