Exchange tips and tricks for the Akai MPC4000
By adrian Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:49 am
Saved by Sys-Ex

It may seem tweaky, but sys-ex is easy to learn and powerful when put to use in your studio

Gather ’round, brothers and sisters, and let’s testify about how to be saved by sys-ex! Yes, you can be saved from the hellfires of lost data and the purgatory of misplaced patches, thanks to the miracle of MIDI system exclusive (sys-ex) data.

Okay, maybe sys-ex won’t provide a religious experience — but it makes it easier to use outboard MIDI hardware with your software audio/MIDI host sequencer. Most hosts offer multiple ways to save projects, from a small file that “points” to data on your hard drive, to saving a huge file that contains everything used in the project, including samples, all audio, etc. If the latter, you can save everything related to a project by simply backing up that one file.

But once outboard hardware gets into the act — a favorite keyboard or signal processor, a digital mixer, whatever — saving becomes more complex. For example, I often like to mix a sequence through a digital mixer, by sending “stems” into 16 channels of an ADAT interface. But now the initial mixer parameters need to be saved as part of the project too. For vocals, I frequently use a hardware reverb, and for guitar, a Line 6 PODxt or DigiTech GNX4 . . . so now their parameters have to be saved, along with the parameters from my fave hardware synths. How do I do it?

SYS-EX MEETS THE HOST

As these are MIDI devices, they can dump their data as sys-ex messages that represent a snapshot of the unit’s contents, which appear at the MIDI output. Even better, you can usually record the sys-ex messages within the project itself. Simply patch a cable from the device’s MIDI out to your computer interface’s MIDI in, initiate a dump at the device or request one via the host, and record the data into a MIDI track in your host. When you want to reload the data, patch your computer interface’s MIDI out to your device’s MIDI in. The data appearing on the track plays into the device, which restores its settings.

That’s the theory; practically, matters aren’t quite that simple. So, consider the following when recording sys-ex into a host.

Size matters. Some sys-ex dumps can be huge, which may bog down your sequencer. However, most gear gives you the option to send out varying amounts of sys-ex — a single patch, all patches, only system settings, everything, etc. If you just need to change a synth patch in the middle of a song, then dump that single patch (not a complete sound bank) into the instrument’s track. It will likely be only a few kilobytes, and your sequencer will be able to burp it back into your synth without even blinking.

Now, you might think if all you need to do is send out a patch, wouldn’t it be easier to insert a program change instead? Yes, except that the program change assumes you have the same patches loaded into your keyboard that you had when you inserted the program change command. If you tweak patches often, that may not be the case. By sending sys-ex, you’re sending the actual patch data, not just something that calls up a particular memory slot.

Check your preferences. Most hosts disable sys-ex recording because unlike note data, it’s not something you record all the time. So, you’ll probably need to find a “MIDI filter” dialog box and make sure the host can record sys-ex. Sys-ex might also be disabled on your outboard device, so check that too.

Put the sys-ex on a separate track. It would make sense to include the patch data needed to set up an outboard device at the beginning of the MIDI track driving it, but that means you’ll be re-sending that sys-ex every time you start the song. This not only sends a lot of data down the MIDI stream, but may take quite a bit of time — MIDI sys-ex messages travel slowly. A more efficient approach is to record all needed “setup” sys-ex, one data file after another, into a single track. When you start a song, solo that track, and as you play the sequence it will sequentially load up all your devices with the appropriate patch information. Then, unsolo the sys-ex track and mute it. Now the sys-ex won’t keep re-loading when you play back your song.

Check for protocols. Not all sequencers work the same way. For example, Cubase SX treats sys-ex like any other MIDI data: Record it into a track, then play it back. Sonar limits sys-ex recording to 255 bytes, which is optimized for short messages like control setting changes. However, Sonar also has a sys-ex librarian that’s saved with each project, where you can store up to 8,192 banks of sys-ex data. You can insert a track event that triggers sending a bank’s contents through the MIDI out, thus accomplishing the same thing as playing sys ex from a track.

Get into the habit of saving sys-ex with a project, and next time you have to re-load it, everything should be exactly as you left it. Amazingly, sometimes technology does make life easier!

Keyboard magazine

By jonespnice Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:03 am
Hi adrian,
Do you use the triton keyboard? The reason I ask is that it seems that there's a problem using sysex. between the mpc and the triton, I can record sysex. into the mpc and send it back to the triton fine but if I save the sysex. onto the mpc's hard drive and then try to reload it, onto a sequence. I get a error message on the mpc saying " buffer full", I was wondering if you know a workaround for this problem. thanks.

By adrian Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:21 am
No, I am still new to Sys-ex. I am sure someone on this forum can help you though.
User avatar

By Lampdog Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:16 am
adrian wrote:No, I am still new to Sys-ex. I am sure someone on this forum can help you though.


But you came off like you are the sys ex king..... :D
Now you run and hide like a court Jester, WTF? Just kidding.

If you copied it from a website and posted it then then honorable thing to do is give credits at the bottom so as well, give credit and mislead peeps into thinking you are the king, ya know what I'm saying. You may carry on now. Kidding man, I got jokes......
User avatar

By feline1 Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:23 pm
The MPC4000's SysEx was crippled and dysfunctional for a long time,
but we got a lot of bug fixes and documentation updates put in for OS1.50

Get the SysEx PDF from Akai Unprofessional's website

By adrian Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:24 pm
If you copied it from a website and posted it then then honorable thing to do is give credits at the bottom


I did post it at bottom, and no, I did not go back and edit.

Adrian
FWTX

By renegadebliss Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:35 pm
jonespnice wrote:Hi adrian,
Do you use the triton keyboard? The reason I ask is that it seems that there's a problem using sysex. between the mpc and the triton, I can record sysex. into the mpc and send it back to the triton fine but if I save the sysex. onto the mpc's hard drive and then try to reload it, onto a sequence. I get a error message on the mpc saying " buffer full", I was wondering if you know a workaround for this problem. thanks.


I don't have a Triton and i'm NOT a sysex expert :) , but I can offer
a suggestion for troubleshooting.

1) I wanted to make sure that you do NOT have a Midi Loop? Does the
Triton have a "Soft Thru" or something like that? Does the MPC have
it's soft thru going? Just want to make sure that the MPC is NOT getting
back what it is sending, as that could fill the buffer. (though this doesn't
really make sense, as it's working fine,until you save it, so the answer
is probably, no, i don't have a Midi loop).

2) Can you actually inspect the Sysex for us and make sure that it is the
same? You can do that by going into the step edit. You should see
the Sysex code in there. Though it's tedius, can you write it down
before you save on a piece of paper and compare that to what is loaded
up from the harddrive? I want to make sure that the data itself is not
changing , so we can have a better idea where to focus the troubleshooting
on.

3) What type of Sysex are you saving? Just a patch data? Or is it a other info.
I use Sysex mainly to store my Waldorf Q, Waldorf Rack Attack, Studio Electronics ATC-1, Syntenco TeeBee, MKS-50 patches into a sequence,
so that when I start the sequence, it will restore the external Synths
with the correct patch. I have used to record some PG-300 (mks-50 programmer) into the sequence. But haven't seen the Midi Buffer full
errors.

Cheers,

Dave

By Altopiano Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:58 am
i m no midi guru either but midi buffer full sounds like if your sending your data to quickly ... happens on my module if i send it back at 180 too ... i usually dump at 30 and send back at 30 bpm and then i never got a problem ... hth

By Altopiano Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:44 am
no wait jonesp ... didnt we have a similar discussion some week back? ... you get the error message when loading a single sequence which only contains sysex information on yout 4k? you dont even come to the point to sent it to your module when you get the midi buffer full message? ... if so forget about my last post ... but some weird similar things happened here lately too...

i did 2 songs where i saved all relevant information on 2 separate folders on my 4k harddisc ... in its final versions folder 1 contained seq 1 (the song 1) and seq 127 (all sysex for external gear) separately and an all file and the multi, prog, samples. the other contained seq 2 (song 2) and seq 128 for the external gear for song 2, the all file and all the rest ... then i wanted to organize them in one all file and 2 multis: i uploaded the all file for song 1 then i uploaded the independent sequnce 2 and everytime i uploaded sequence 128 my 4k crashed! sequnce 128 contained only sysex information for my virus, and 3 fxs, no note mesages nothen else ... only sysex ... i crashed it 4-5 times in a row coz i couldnt believe it ... it was a few month ago ... surely not on os 1.70 .... however my workaround was sendin a sysex info for song 2 to my external gear and save the patches there ... then i did a new sysexdump where both songs were in one sysex file for the virus ... had to do just little reprogrammin on the 4k as i had just 2 songs ... with more it sux though imo. next time i ll see if it still does it if so i ll post my file to akai.
User avatar

By charlieocali Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:34 am
Just wanted to say thanks to the guy who started this post..... I always tracked out every beat immediately after finishing into pro tools. That can get kinda uninspiring when your trying to do 5 tracks a day!

So thanks again, I tried it with my 2000xl, Rol. 5080, Triton.... works F@ucking great! Can't believe Ive slept on this one...Dam.

By jonespnice Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:45 pm
renegadebliss wrote:
jonespnice wrote:Hi adrian,
Do you use the triton keyboard? The reason I ask is that it seems that there's a problem using sysex. between the mpc and the triton, I can record sysex. into the mpc and send it back to the triton fine but if I save the sysex. onto the mpc's hard drive and then try to reload it, onto a sequence. I get a error message on the mpc saying " buffer full", I was wondering if you know a workaround for this problem. thanks.


I don't have a Triton and i'm NOT a sysex expert :) , but I can offer
a suggestion for troubleshooting.

1) I wanted to make sure that you do NOT have a Midi Loop? Does the
Triton have a "Soft Thru" or something like that? Does the MPC have
it's soft thru going? Just want to make sure that the MPC is NOT getting
back what it is sending, as that could fill the buffer. (though this doesn't
really make sense, as it's working fine,until you save it, so the answer
is probably, no, i don't have a Midi loop).

2) Can you actually inspect the Sysex for us and make sure that it is the
same? You can do that by going into the step edit. You should see
the Sysex code in there. Though it's tedius, can you write it down
before you save on a piece of paper and compare that to what is loaded
up from the harddrive? I want to make sure that the data itself is not
changing , so we can have a better idea where to focus the troubleshooting
on.

3) What type of Sysex are you saving? Just a patch data? Or is it a other info.
I use Sysex mainly to store my Waldorf Q, Waldorf Rack Attack, Studio Electronics ATC-1, Syntenco TeeBee, MKS-50 patches into a sequence,
so that when I start the sequence, it will restore the external Synths
with the correct patch. I have used to record some PG-300 (mks-50 programmer) into the sequence. But haven't seen the Midi Buffer full
errors.

Cheers,

Dave
Thanks, Dave, for responding.
1) I don't have a midi loop going on
2) I have inspected the sysex info to make sure it was the same and it is
3) The type of sysex info that I'm sending is sequence information ( patches, effects, volume, ect.)
Everything works fine until I save it onto my hard drive and that's when I have the problem. I've tried recording\sending it back at 30bpm and that didn't help, and I can't think of any other thing to try. It works fine with all my other sound modules, but one thing I've noticed is that the triton is the only on that sends it's sysex messages in one line, the others don't
ex. Exclusive: f0 42 30 50 48 00 00 00 47 00 ..................
while the others send theirs on multiple lines
ex. Exclusive: f0 42 30 50 48 00 00 00 47 00 01 ..........
Exclusive: 13 00 04 01 03 61 00 13 00 01 00 ..........
BTW, when I save something as small as a single patch then it works fine.
User avatar

By ikke Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:00 pm
feline1 wrote:The MPC4000's SysEx was crippled and dysfunctional for a long time,
but we got a lot of bug fixes and documentation updates put in for OS1.50

Get the SysEx PDF from Akai Unprofessional's website


:lol: :lol:

Akaiunpro.com :lol:
User avatar

By charlieocali Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:18 am
Okay boys got my mpc4000 today and have benn having the same problem with the triton and sys ex.....


SO HERES THE FIX!!!!!



make new seq.... as usual.... put tempo tempo to30bpm....press...... record+playstart......send dump seq... that way dump isnt on the 1... also I think it spreads the dump a bit.... NO MORE BUFFER ERRORS!



:P

By jonespnice Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:31 pm
charlieocali wrote:Okay boys got my mpc4000 today and have benn having the same problem with the triton and sys ex.....


SO HERES THE FIX!!!!!



make new seq.... as usual.... put tempo tempo to30bpm....press...... record+playstart......send dump seq... that way dump isnt on the 1... also I think it spreads the dump a bit.... NO MORE BUFFER ERRORS!



:P
I've tried that but once I save it to my hard drive I get the same problem.