Meaningful units for PROGRAM mode parameters

Well,
it's always slightly ahined me that FX mode gives you nice sensible units for the FX parameter values,
but PROGRAM mode just has el geeko hackers arbitrary "1 - 100" ranges.


So i finally made a list of 'em all and emailed them to [email protected]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is a feature request for the next OS upgrade of the MPC4000:

Many of the parameters in the user interface,
especially in "PROGRAM" mode,
are not expressed in meaningful units -
instead they are just given arbitrary programming values
(e.g. between 1 - 100 )

This is a poor interface.
(Note - the FX mode, and the levels in MULTI and PROGRAM mode,
*are* all displayed in proper units!
The PROGRAM parameters should be the same)
This should also be duplicated in the Ak.Sys software.



Here are some suggestions:

**PROGRAM mode**

*PITCH page
--Program block:
-Tune field should have units of cents

--Sample List block:
- "Tune" column should have heading "Tune (cents)"


*EDIT 1 page
--Program block:
- Tune field should have units of cents

--Filter block:
- Cutoff freq: should be expressed in herx (Hz or kHz)
- Resonance: should be expressed as a "Q" factor
- R1, R2, R3 and R4 (Filter envelople rate parameters) should be expressed in milliseconds (ms)
- Attack, Decay, Sustain & Release (AMP Envelope) should be expressed in milliseconds (ms)

*EDIT 2 page
--Program block:
- Tune field should have units of cents

-- LFO1 and LFO2 blocks:
-Rate should be expressed in hertz (Hz)
-Delay should be expressed in milliseconds (ms)
- Phase should be expressed in degrees (°)

--AUX Env block:
R1, R2, R3 and R4 (Aux envelople rate parameters) should be expressed in milliseconds (ms)


*ZONE page
--Program block:
- Tune field should have units of cents

--Pitch block:
- "Tune" column should have unit of cents
- "Start" should have unit "samples"


* MISC page
--Program block:
- Tune field should have units of cents

-- MIDI block:
"transpose" should have units "semitones"

--BEND block:
- Bend Up and Bend Down should have units "semitones"

-- Soft Pedal block:
- "Loudness reduction" should have units dB ?
- "Attack stretch" should have units of "samples" ?

>> WINDOW >> "Portamento" pop-up

- In "SPEED" mode, "Rate" should have units "semitones per second"
- In "TIME" mode, "Rate" should have units "seonds"

>> WINDOW >> "Program Scale" pop-up
- Should be labelled that all tuning values are in cents

hy feline - thanx for sendin this ... those things piss me off since the day i got the 4k ... yours are all great suggestions and would make workin in programs much easier ...

there are two more program things i d like to see changad too but i d like to ask here before sendin an rfe coz those things maybe just bug me ...

1. imo its grea5t to be able to sample and quickly assign the sample to a program via ... add pgm > new pgm ... however those newly created programs are weird and i don't understand what sense it makes to set them up that way ... levels are set strangely, adsr, program modulation is preset, and so on ... imo it would make more sense if the just sampled guitar, snare or whateva would just sound exactly the same as the sample when i assign it to a program initially .... ie ... if i sample a guitar i don't want the velocity or tilt velo to control amplitude, lfo to control its pitch in program modulation, why the fukk is there a modwheel preset if i don't have one at the 4k, also amp env presets are weird imo ... i d like to set all those things on my own, everytime i sample somethin the first thing i have to do is make all prog modulations inactive and make some settings to bring my program back to normal ... so imo a new program should just be empty and play back the sample as i just sampled it ... and all levels at 0 - i can make them less loud on my own

2. workin in drum programs is nice, workin in keygrou pgms a mess imo ... wouldn't it make more sense if keygroup pgms could be operated as drumprograms? meaning if i hit a pad, the keygroup pgm should show me the sample i m just hitting with my pad such as it is on drum programs ...

any opinions on those too?

Yeah, I certainly have opinions on the default program set-up.


One thing I discovered after about one year of owning the MPC4000 -
the default value in Programs for the ATTACK (R1) on the AMP ENVELOPE is "1"
(1 *what*, you crazy ass coders?!?)

Anyways, however,
that is NOT the fastest attack value -
the fastest attack value is ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I and many others did not suspect this for months and months.

Thus, any samples you load into a default program will have those crucial inital attack transients slewed off!
(I remember sampling my Roland CR78 drum machine,
I was utterly baffled how, even at 96/24 sampling,
the samples sounded so *DIFFERENT* ..... until I realised about the Attack)

A great many MPC4000 users complained that the MPC4000 lacked the "punch" of the MPC60/3000/2000......... I do believe this is the main reason why -
any drum samples become emaciated by this attack until you are wise to it!


The default part, program, keygroup and zone levels,
plus the amount of amplitude modulation from velocity,
are SCREWED -
keep them as is,
and your sample volumes will hit a "ceiling" all the time.

It took me months to work out a combination of values that let me
use Note On velocities of 0 to 127 in sequences,
and see a corresponding volume change, linearly, all the way up without
hitting ceiling.

I honestly gave up asking Akai for more info on this "gain architecture", I never once got a f*cking proper reply from them about it.
(At least the FX return level did finally get sorted,
even if it got me banned from the DPSWorld EZboard in the process..... )

In fact, almost ALL the modulations keep hitting "ceilings" -
I mean try sending an LFO to the filter cutoff,
it's so easy to drive the filter permanently 100% open.

You have a combination of "LFO Level", then Modulation level in the matrix (+ve or -ve), then the filter level......
does it get added or multiplied or wot? very confusing
(and lack of proper units make it more opaque)


Anyways,
the filter resolution SUCKS.

100 incremements?!?

Jesus wept,
my Sequential Circuits Sixtrak from 1983 has 127 steps to the filter cutoff (7 bit resolution), and the MPC4000 can't even manage that .....!

Exelent stuff!!!

yeah - i've always wondered about this stuff too...

with the q-link when you are controlling the effects for example - q-link values are obviously 0-127 but I still have no idea how they relate to parameters in the effects. I always assumed it was 0-100%, but this is definately not the case - if you set it to control the delay time for example, it seems to just go from 1 arbitrary value at one extreme to the another arbitrary value at the other extreme, but it is definately not the min/max delay times...

am i just confused and it does actually work properly? or is this something else to add to the list?

it really does annoy me that cutoff's etc don't have hz values and only this 0-127 thing - 0-127 whats? if you want to filter around a specific frequency you just have to spend ages screwing around...

machina

Totally back you up on this one Feline,

I am not sure how the parameter mapping is done as well.
'Full spec' musical instruments should talk the language of music and sound. Like this it is impossible to conciously make fine and specific adjustments to the settings in program mode. Trial and error, trial and error. Not sure if the setting you want is actually possible with 100 incrementing linear steps for frequency cutoff...

If there is a logic to it, and I guess there should be one, right? It should at least be explained somewhere.

Hope this finally will be changed.

....

feline1 wrote:One thing I discovered after about one year of owning the MPC4000 -
the default value in Programs for the ATTACK (R1) on the AMP ENVELOPE is "1"
(1 *what*, you crazy ass coders?!?)

Anyways, however,
that is NOT the fastest attack value -
the fastest attack value is ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I and many others did not suspect this for months and months.

Thus, any samples you load into a default program will have those crucial inital attack transients slewed off!
(I remember sampling my Roland CR78 drum machine,
I was utterly baffled how, even at 96/24 sampling,
the samples sounded so *DIFFERENT* ..... until I realised about the Attack)

A great many MPC4000 users complained that the MPC4000 lacked the "punch" of the MPC60/3000/2000......... I do believe this is the main reason why -
any drum samples become emaciated by this attack until you are wise to it!

first off its good to see that others bug the same things ... second, i m still convinced that the 4k is fukkin great and imo it was more important to adress other issues in previous os updates - so its all quite good for me - ... but sooner or later imo those things shold be adressed too ... however i prefer not to **** too much bout those issues coz i think that doesn't help my 4k as it does yours ...

anyways i agree with you feline - if the 4k has or had a bad reputation, was lackin in punch or whateva ... imo its akais own fault - not because the 4k is weak, i m refering more to its documentation and the fact that some things are simply setup screwed but there is no reason for it imo ... the 4k itself is great, the mod matrix phantastic - but with the lack of explanation of values and all those weird 0-100 ranges, modulation intensity to be set ie. at lfo and mod matrix ... trial and error is the only way to go ... and to be honest regarding a company like akai those are the things that piss me off most ... how can you (akai in this specific case) build a phantastic machine and hide its beauty to its users ... sorry to say - but i really don't understand it! ... i mean - how can ya setup a program like that (adsr 1, 50, 100, 15 or so, the mod matrix) without telling it to a new user? - absolute nonsense imo ... well ìt takes me 15 seconds on every program to bring it back to normal - my current workaround - store some empty default programs on hd and load your sample into that - however those method sux too once you got 100 plus samples in memory coz ya spent alot of time to find your sample in sample mode .... anyways i doubt that any new 4k user is able to bring its samples into a new program 1 and has the sample playback puchy and tuned as it should do ... and i would love to see that changed ... it would speed up my workflow enourmously ...

and another thing which just came up ... q-links ... imo there should be a value field displaying the actual number my q-link is set atm ... ie. get a sample - assign a q-link to pitch - pitch it up and down - and then quickly try to bring it back to its normal picht ... would be much easier if ya see a number that displays the current setting of q-link ....

... and somethin besides - feline - the address your sendin your rfe's ... dunno but i think thats the old one - isn't it?

feck knows -
I emailed to check what address I should be using,
and got no reply!

In fact I never get a f*cking reply!

Ignorant f*ckers!

check what sean s been postin a while back at dps

http://p206.ezboard.com/fdpsworldfrm5.s ... =441.topic

feline - i copied seans last post here in case you dont wanna go back ... ... and btw: thanx for bringin our fx return level back ...

The new support email is [email protected]
Bug reports (and bug reports only) should still be sent to [email protected]

There will also be a new US website (currently under contruction) at www.akaiproamerica.com

For general product information, please refer to the International website at www.akaipro.com/int/

Sean


so if there hasn't been a never one meanwhile i ll take the [email protected] one ...

peace and bangin beaz

Feline knows the stuff - thanxs for the hard - ass work

S

I *can't* go back to DPSWorld -
when you're banned from an EZboard,
it does it by IP and you can't even READ the board,
you just get a BANNED screen in your browser!!!!!

I doubt the US address is for non-US customers -
generally you're supposed to use a local address in each country

However the local address on http://www.akaipro.com/int/support
for the UK is WRONG!!!!
Doesn't work any more.
I emailed akai to tell them that - no response! Feckers!

I will cc- everything i sent to [email protected]
to that US address anyways, can't do any harm
or be ignored any more than it has been already!

[quote="feline1"]I *can't* go back to DPSWorld -
when you're banned from an EZboard,
it does it by IP and you can't even READ the board,
you just get a BANNED screen in your browser!!!!!


sorry but that shit s funny - i feared so ... but you dont miss out alot coz there s really not much goin on there lately



I doubt the US address is for non-US customers -
generally you're supposed to use a local address in each country


... i doubt the italian address is for italian akai customers - i even doubt that it ever was ... so i ll send to us for now

ive got a few bugs. Im gonna send this in, but i thought i should post it here as well.

Please correct me if im wrong, as i have not owned my mpc4000 as long as some of you guys have....although this is not my first mpc.

When playing a sequence in main mode, then switching to sample mode, everything goes nuts. The sequence does not automatically stop (like it does on the mpc2xl) I have to stop the sequencer first, then go to sample mode.

You can not step edit from the main screen. This should not be that hard to implement, and yes, step edit is only one button away, but this was implemented on the mpc2xl......very fast and a nice feature. Those with 2xl experience know how awesome this is.

with keygroups, the lo to hi setting uses midi numbers instead of C2, C3, etc. It would be much easier if it did this as i dont have midi numbers memorized.

when editing in program mode, while the sequence is playing, it only plays the program that is being edited.....i would like a button to turn on or turn off other tracks(with differant programs), so that i can hear what my edits sound like with the other tracks. For example, if im filteriing some low end off a sample, id like to play my bass line at the same time so i can see where it needs to be. Otherwise you have to toggle back and forth from main and program menus.

when in sample menu in the "list"menu.... when you hit the pads to play the sample selected on the list, it plays it as if you where in 16 levels mode. It does not play the original tuning of the sample. This is annoying and sometimes makes it difficult to realize what the actual sample is.

cyrus wrote:When playing a sequence in main mode, then switching to sample mode, everything goes nuts. The sequence does not automatically stop (like it does on the mpc2xl) I have to stop the sequencer first, then go to sample mode.

This is a feature... real-time sampling so you can sample while playing - very useful and awesome feature.

cyrus wrote:You can not step edit from the main screen. This should not be that hard to implement, and yes, step edit is only one button away, but this was implemented on the mpc2xl......very fast and a nice feature. Those with 2xl experience know how awesome this is.

not sure what you mean here, you just hit the step edit button and you're in step edit mode. why have it on the screen too? it still one button.

cyrus wrote:when editing in program mode, while the sequence is playing, it only plays the program that is being edited.....i would like a button to turn on or turn off other tracks(with differant programs), so that i can hear what my edits sound like with the other tracks. For example, if im filteriing some low end off a sample, id like to play my bass line at the same time so i can see where it needs to be. Otherwise you have to toggle back and forth from main and program menus.

you can alter this at the top of the screen - can't remember what it's called as I don't have my machine or manual nearby - but you just switch it from "program" to "multi" i think

cyrus wrote:when in sample menu in the "list"menu.... when you hit the pads to play the sample selected on the list, it plays it as if you where in 16 levels mode. It does not play the original tuning of the sample. This is annoying and sometimes makes it difficult to realize what the actual sample is.

I haven't run into this problem - not really sure what you mean.

im not talking about record mode, im talking about sample edit mode-for the first one;

for step edit mode, check out a mpc2xl and youll know what i mean. Its not an event edit list. All you do is hold down the record button, hit your pads, and advance with the step buttons, just like step edit mode, except you dont have to be in step edit. You can do it right from the main screen. There is no changed menus at all, but the sequencer just lets you step in your events by holding down the rec button.