How many keygroups?

Blue Haze wrote:

LvngDead wrote:wtf..?

blue haze, can you explain this EASY MO BEE situation? mixing traditional with new? HUUUUUH????

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9-MLp3l2fkA

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=d2T9WfHIhOM

In an interview Easy Moe Bee mixed traditional horns, hair dryers, and a numbers of sounds to come up these hits.

Creative use of samples in a keygroup program to come up with new melodies. Plus alot of sound designers work this way.


To clarify, EMB did the drum programming and sequencing on a EMu SP-1200. But like a number of artists at that time he made up his own melodic samples from hair dryers, arsenals, and what not in a Akai S950 which is a full key group sampler. Through his work with Miles Davis he stated he strived to use the full range of the S950 instead of like most phrase sampling for his own music.


Now a number of electronic bands and dance producers s use full sampler samplers to come up with their own unique sounds from Depeche Mode http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=kHknGSp2bLI to http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Kedd2-0IE ... re=related and this http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=jrDiNP50W ... re=related

Now software works the same and this guys explains well http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9AxXS6TczB8


A guy creation sounds with layered synth sounds that he sampled. http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=dxuFAH46mrc

Back to the original arguement of why we go beyond just loop based sampling (nothing wrong with it I do it too) and why the using a keyboard it inventive. The understanding of the post was getting lost over thinking it is about how many multisamples one can have in a keygroup no it isn`t. I have software samplers for a ensemble strings, grand piano and all of that.

The purpose of my statements were and are the creative useage of keygroup programs to create one`s own intruments and programs from SCRATCH.

Simple that is how I use my keygroup programs in my 4k to create new sounds. For the rest do as you wish.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct07/a ... emusic.htm

Originally it was about how many keygroups in a keygroup program. Not why we use keygroups. Some confusing information was brought forth indicating that you can use numerous samples in one keygroup which isn't the case. One sample is tuned across a range making up a single key group. This range is 1 or more notes. 128 of these keygroups make up a keygroup program. You can assign multiple keygroups to the same range and use keygroup crossfade to create a realistic sounding instrument. But if you multisampled a piano in great depths, using this technique..you will end up with a great sounding piano but no memory left. Software samplers don't have this limitation. That is why I am seriously looking at the Receptor VST host.

What I see as a small problem today is that the power of the S5000 format used by the S5000/6000, Z 4/8 and MPC 4000 is not really supported in commercial libraries. You have no choice but to build programs from scratch...and there is nothing wrong with that. It is just something users should be aware of. Now, there is software available that claim it can take a multisampled giga instrument and convert it to a decent S5000 format program. I am seriously looking at purchasing this program. Additionally, since I have Emu's software sampler that can automatically create a keygroup program from any synth connected to it and save it as a bank...I am looking for a program that will convert that Emu bank into the S5000 format or a format that my keyboard or my S1000/3000 compatible sampler will be able to support.

Askia Shaheed wrote:Originally it was about how many keygroups in a keygroup program. Not why we use keygroups. Some confusing information was brought forth indicating that you can use numerous samples in one keygroup which isn't the case. One sample is tuned across a range making up a single key group. This range is 1 or more notes. 128 of these keygroups make up a keygroup program. You can assign multiple keygroups to the same range and use keygroup crossfade to create a realistic sounding instrument. But if you multisampled a piano in great depths, using this technique..you will end up with a great sounding piano but no memory left. Software samplers don't have this limitation. That is why I am seriously looking at the Receptor VST host.

What I see as a small problem today is that the power of the S5000 format used by the S5000/6000, Z 4/8 and MPC 4000 is not really supported in commercial libraries. You have no choice but to build programs from scratch...and there is nothing wrong with that. It is just something users should be aware of. Now, there is software available that claim it can take a multisampled giga instrument and convert it to a decent S5000 format program. I am seriously looking at purchasing this program. Additionally, since I have Emu's software sampler that can automatically create a keygroup program from any synth connected to it and save it as a bank...I am looking for a program that will convert that Emu bank into the S5000 format or a format that my keyboard or my S1000/3000 compatible sampler will be able to support.

Good you are getting it.


Except your quote ( Some confusing information was brought forth indicating that you can use numerous samples in one keygroup which isn't the case.)

Technically a keygroup is a container of sorts that can hold 4 sounds in zones or layers depending on the machine. But the catch is a keygroup can be assigned to any midi note aka key you want it to be so in essense you can layer as many keygroups as you want over the same midi note such as C3 with 30 keygroups stacked if one wishes up to 120 sounds in zones layer if one wish. You see you assign the keygroup to whatever midi note you wish as the root. Then set the range of keys to cove a span of notes.


Really no one without a professional pianoist, engineer, or pro studio wants to record and layer a grand piano at home unless you are really skilled at it. That is why most buy libraries which we discussed back on the 4 vs 5 we bought buy for software. All the videos I posted were sound designing and creating sounds with studio samplers and technics for using the 4k`s multi with ORIGiNAL samples layering them into something creative which it how I use my own 4k keygroup sampler.

For the record I use exs in Logic, Kontakt and others for mulitsampled traditional instruments. 4k for making my own sounds from scratch.

Next out the snippets of one note samples he creatively plays in keygroups to make his own melodys using his kurzwell. Passing his judgment on the 4k having 2 keygroup samplers would be redundant just his technic is the focus.


http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=qPM9jStpVn0

Using keygroups.

Askia Shaheed wrote:

Blue Haze wrote:

Askia Shaheed wrote:^
So...you have to ask yourself....why has Akai not included these features in its current line of products? They have the technology. Not only do they have Akai technology and resources..they also have Alesis (the makers of the Andromeda A6 and Fusion).

If these functions are what it's users want in an MPC, why would they not deliver especially since they already have the code? Why not make an updated version of the MPC 4000 with all the new features of the 5000/2500/1000?

I don't expect anyone to know the reason why...but I would speculate possibilities:
1. Not many people want such a product
2. These features are coming in the 5K, but they are taking their time to get it right
3. These features are not coming in the 5K but the 6K

First this isn`t the 4k vs 5k comparsion thread.

Second the question on topic is why are keygroups important and how are they used for which we have demonstrated.

Third the users of the 4k have already demanded these and a continuation back in 2004-2005 cuz the features that were originally for the 4k upgrade O.S. I was privy to the suprise info to compete with the MV but instead Nuakai made the MPC 2500 instead.

Fourth once Jack took over the whole of Akai the keygroup sampling engine line development
was stopped no more new keygroup samplers aka studio sampling line pass the Z8 series .

Fifth you are right the alot of the early adopters coming from the phrase sampling loop based mentality thought and still think that a keygroup sampler wasn`t necessary and difficult to work with especially thinking to play a keygroup on the pads, think about it??? It is made to work with a keyboard get it, keygroup=keyboard controller. Me too for a time until I sold my triton studio and started working more in the box with the 4k and software synths and samplers.

(I have to say that the world of software synths and samplers from ableton sampler, racks, reason combinations, and Korgs, EXS, and others expanded my understanding and I transfered my knowledge back to the 4k then it all made sense as I started out phrase sampling like most did too with very little understanding of sound synthesis possibilities.)

Sixth yeah with most of the mpc users with a drum sampling machine background the zero sum game by Nuakai is to give them what is easier another drum sampling machine abet a synth added. Remember the video where Jack was meeting with two cats about the kind of new mpc they wanted.

Seventh you and i would agree that software samplers are far beyond with hardware samplers can do integrated with a Daw so Nuakai went and probably will go with phrase sampling with added side elements remember it is all about the SAMPLES because they didn`t want to compete with software.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=xqm-A5nqeKQ this is an example of an incredible soft sampler it`s called synth but it is as powerful sampler.


Eighth back to what a keygroup programs can do for sound designing our own sounds I learnt alot from watching this fanstatic guys I transfer what I learnt back onto the 4k. Of course the 4k isn`t as powerful as definivitly as ominsphere but keygroup programs gives me the possibilites and ablities to create my own sounds from SAMPLES, SAMPLES in a KEYGROUP SAMPLER a beautiful thing.


http://www.spectrasonics.net/omnisphere ... large.html



Keygroup programs, Multis, and Program Matrix gives you tremendous options to create what instruments and sounds you want the real power of any keygroup sampler beyond a phrase sampler.


Simple once you understand what you can do.

Too much writing for such a simple question.

1. This is not about comparing MPCs.
2. If keygroups are important ...then you have to wonder why would Akai release new products without this technology
3. Why would MPC 4K users continue to demand keygroups if they already have an MPC that does this? It is clearly documented that long time MPC users didn't like the MPC 4000. It had too many bugs early own and the workflow was not great. Akai listened to feedback and the MPC 2500 was later born. Not only did it replace the XL...it replaced the MPC 3000 as well.
4. Jack doesn't do any of the hands on development of these products. The fact is, Akai doesn't have to further develop keygroup sampling engines. They already have the technology and can implement it in any MPC they choose. Alesis did release another keygroup sampler in the Fusion. This technology can be added to MPCs if they choose.
5. The early adaptors (I was one of them) thought they could replace their MPC 3000s and S3000 (or the Emu series samplers) set-ups with just the MPC 4000. It's not that we didn't think a keygroup sampler was not necessary...we felt that the MPC 3000 and S3000 (and later S5000/6000) set-ups was far more intuitive.
6. Akai is giving users exactly what they want. If you look at th feature requests threads, you will see that. The MPC 4000 Forum doesn't have any feature request threads. Knowing Akai/Numark frequent the forums, and your unwavering support of the MPC 4000..why would you not have this type of thread as a sticky? The MPC 4000s development appears to be done. So if you really want something to replace it...make it known.
7. Everyone would agree that software samplers (on a good computer) are more powerful than any hardware. It appears that Akai may stick with focusing on improving MPC integration with MIDI devices (4 MIDI outs...Q-links w/external control)....but appearances are deceiving....I wouldn't think anyone would acquire a company like Akai (legendary for MPCs and samplers) would just sit on their hands. I think the MPC 4000 will have a true replacement in the eyes of its biggest supporters..whether that is the MPC 5000, MPC 5000XL, or MPC 6000....I think it will come...so start your feature request threads....
8. Back to keygroups? We never stopped. And there are plenty of recent threads on the subject basically due to the MPC 5000 being released. Prior to that, there were no significant talk about keygroups in 3 years within these forums.

Dude! Something stinks!

I wonder how many keygroups will be added to the MPC 5000:
http://www.akaipro.com/spotmpcos2

Askia Shaheed wrote:I wonder how many keygroups will be added to the MPC 5000:
http://www.akaipro.com/spotmpcos2

cool now the 5k can read my 24bit samples too

Now it's time for people to stop making excuses and create some music.

Askia Shaheed wrote:I wonder how many keygroups will be added to the MPC 5000:
http://www.akaipro.com/spotmpcos2

I don't know but sadly it looks like one keygroup program!!

At least some sort of multi and matrix is needed. Let's see what happens?

Blue Haze wrote:

Askia Shaheed wrote:I wonder how many keygroups will be added to the MPC 5000:
http://www.akaipro.com/spotmpcos2

I don't know but sadly it looks like one keygroup program!!

At least some sort of multi and matrix is needed. Let's see what happens?

I don't think it needs some type of matrix but if that is what you want...I suggested you make a case for it. If you would have done that for the past few years......

Anyway...it only shows the basic screen for the keygroup programs. Did you miss the part where it loads S series, Z series, and MPC 4000 formats?

And it is just not one keygroup program...you actually get up to 128 keygroups per program...and the MPC 5000 currently holds 128 program in memory.

Now with the 4 layers per pad..and the ability to assign 128 keygroups to the same range...the possibilities are numerous. Did you also see the Effects are now automated?

Dude, let it go. Do you always have to have the last word. Or, you like hear yourself talk(type). You are preaching to 4000 users who could care less about what they do for the 5000. I know I don't. NEW DOES NOT MEAN BETTER!!!

What happened to the CHALLENGE! Probably, put those beats in storage like those O2R's.

Challenge? Beat challenge? Keep that in the right threads and/or send me a PM....on the drop of a dime, I will go at anybody on this board..especially you and whatever you use.

Stop spamming all the threads and get back to MPCs. This forum can now be like what the MPC 1000 forum is to the MPC 2500 forum. For threads like this (one that I started), it is now valuable to both MPC 4000 and 5000 users alike.

You started this thread to get a rise out of 4000 users. We are satisfied with the 4000. Or did you know it is not supported anymore. What's your point or purpose.


Now, it sounds like you are backing out of the challenge that was put before you. It figures. We got your HO card.

I created this thread to advance MPCs.

I wrote this not too long ago:

Also, I didn't say I have an S3000 sampler. What I said was that I loaded an S series format CD Rom into my keymap sampler. To answer your question directly, I believe I am helping the forum whether you can see this or not. It really isn't about me. I am an MPC dude and will always be. I am for the advancement of MPCs...even the 4K or a future 4K type of product. If you put the sort of effort you have been putting into these keygroup sampler threads...into positive feedback to Akai about what you want in an MPC, then perhaps you will have your dream machine. If you can't believe anything I have ever written here....at least believe me when I say that Akai is listening to forum feedback. That is why I got you worked up into talking about these things. This is not about me..this is about MPCs.

So thanks for your great input and support in these forums. I have no animosity towards you. But the beat battle challenge has been made and still stands...put I won't press you on that matter.

Pay close attention to my words. Positive feedback has resulted in feature requests from this forum implemented in the MPC 5000. I told you guys numerous times to put forth the same effort here. But instead of helping your cause, you have done nothing but spam every MPC 5000 thread, run off the beta testers, and company employees (no help from the moderators)...and trash Akai every chance you get. All of this for what? Even JJ is starting to catch hell in the forum....this forum is full of haters around every corner.

So....I am done here. I will just focus on the advancement of the MPC 5000 and future MPCs (yes, I will purchase the next highend MPC if there is another made). You guys/gals can do what you do here....I just hope it is positive.

Peace.

Respectfully,

Askia

A good listener is just that a good learner.