Questions about the 4K before I invest

Currently I sequence in Pro Tools(LE with the 002 Rack). I'm doing more & more hip hop nowadays, requiring more MIDI work & less audio from traditional instruments. It would be nice to get some ideas down without having to power up the entire rig. But there are some MIDI functions that I've gotten used to that I'm not sure I could live without. Bare in mind I haven't touched an MPC in 4+ years. With that said...

-How is editing CCs on the 4K? Specifically velocity & expression of single & multiple notes. In Pro Tools I can either select a note by clicking on it and then change velocity with a click and then type in my value. Editing expression requires a few clicks to get into "expression mode", then I can drag values from there(velocity can be edited this way too). How much more/less involved are these functions on the 4K?

-How is editing non-drum sequences? For example, how involved are the above functions when dealing with piano sequences where I might have chords and such? Is it simple to transpose single & multiple notes?

-Is there a view that shows the actual recorded notes of a sequence? If so, can I "grab" these notes? Is it simple to move notes back & forth if my timing is off while recording, without having to quantize?

-Does the quantize feature include a % for how strict the quantize will be? Can I quantize but have all notes late/early by a specific amout? Can I quantize only some notes on a track and leave others un-quantized?

-Are there any "common" CCs that would be available with a DAW that's not available on the 4K?

Basically, for anyone that has sequenced on the 4K & on a CPU, how much more/less involved is editing on the 4K?

*And probably more important, how reliable is syncing the 4K to Pro Tools? What method do you use? Is the timing perfect between the two? Are sequences lined up so that if I start Pro Tools from the middle of the song, will the 4K start from the middle? Lastly, is it best to have the Pro Tools or the 4K as the master?

Bezo wrote:Currently I sequence in Pro Tools(LE with the 002 Rack). I'm doing more & more hip hop nowadays, requiring more MIDI work & less audio from traditional instruments. It would be nice to get some ideas down without having to power up the entire rig. But there are some MIDI functions that I've gotten used to that I'm not sure I could live without. Bare in mind I haven't touched an MPC in 4+ years. With that said...

-How is editing CCs on the 4K? Specifically velocity & expression of single & multiple notes. In Pro Tools I can either select a note by clicking on it and then change velocity with a click and then type in my value. Editing expression requires a few clicks to get into "expression mode", then I can drag values from there(velocity can be edited this way too). How much more/less involved are these functions on the 4K?

There is no "Mouse" on the 4000, so you can't "click" on anything. The 4k
has a Step Editor. The Step Editor will tell you the value for your velocity. You can
change the veloicty by typeing a new number for it's value in the step editor. I can't comment on "expression modes" as I don't know what they are..

Bezo wrote:-How is editing non-drum sequences? For example, how involved are the above functions when dealing with piano sequences where I might have chords and such? Is it simple to transpose single & multiple notes?

Again there's a step editor, you can go to your note or notes and change their value
to what ever you want.

Bezo wrote:-Is there a view that shows the actual recorded notes of a sequence? If so, can I "grab" these notes? Is it simple to move notes back & forth if my timing is off while recording, without having to quantize?

You can't "grab" anything, as you don't have a mouse. You can hightlight the set of
notes that you want, copy, delete and then paste them into a new location. is that what
your after? If you want to change the values of what you see, you'll need to go to
step edit.

Bezo wrote:-Does the quantize feature include a % for how strict the quantize will be? Can I quantize but have all notes late/early by a specific amout?

Yes

Bezo wrote: Can I quantize only some notes on a track and leave others un-quantized?

If you record it in 2 passes. Those that are quantized and those that aren't.

Bezo wrote:-Are there any "common" CCs that would be available with a DAW that's not available on the 4K?

There are no common cc's on the 4000 (other then volume), you define your cc's in the Program Modulation Matrix.

Bezo wrote:*And probably more important, how reliable is syncing the 4K to Pro Tools? What method do you use? Is the timing perfect between the two? Are sequences lined up so that if I start Pro Tools from the middle of the song, will the 4K start from the middle? Lastly, is it best to have the Pro Tools or the 4K as the master?

You'll have to ask somebody else this one. I don't like using computers and music making together.

Cheers,
Dave

"There are no common cc's on the 4000(other then volume)"

thats not quite true, there are a bunch listed in the midi spec at the end of the user manual - but I think all can be overidden in the program mod matrix

Thanks for the quick response!

renegadebliss wrote:The 4k has a Step Editor. The Step Editor will tell you the value for your velocity. You can change the veloicty by typeing a new number for it's value in the step editor.

Can I scroll freely through the sequence? Can I skip ahead to the 15th bar for example, and edit a note?

renegadebliss wrote:I can't comment on "expression modes" as I don't know what they are.

I should've said view, not mode. It's just a view that shows each note's expression value.

renegadebliss wrote:You can't "grab" anything, as you don't have a mouse. You can hightlight the set of notes that you want, copy, delete and then paste them into a new location. is that what your after? If you want to change the values of what you see, you'll need to go to step edit.

LOL, I know there's no mouse on an MPC.

But no. What I'm looking for is placing notes exactly where I want them. The 4K has 960 PPQ resolution. So, if I wanted to place a note at 250, a little later than the 1st 16th note in a beat, could I do that?

I know about swing, but I'm concerned with moving idividual notes and placing them exactly where I want on the 960 PPQ grid.

renegadebliss wrote:If you record it in 2 passes. Those that are quantized and those that aren't.

But I couldn't quantize just the kicks on C1 for example, if I've already recorded all drum parts? Is it not possible to select all C1 notes on a track if other notes are recorded?

renegadebliss wrote:There are no common cc's on the 4000 (other then volume), you define your cc's in the Program Modulation Matrix.

Ahhh, OK. Are there any CCs that the 4K won't recognize? Actually, I have a Z4. Is it safe to assume the 4K recognizes any CCs that the Z4/8 would recognize?

Can I define CCs for all sequences and save that, or do I have to define them for every new sequence?

richard wrote:"There are no common cc's on the 4000(other then volume)"

thats not quite true, there are a bunch listed in the midi spec at the end of the user manual - but I think all can be overidden in the program mod matrix

Good to know. Thanks!

Syncs to pro tools just fine.....

"But I couldn't quantize just the kicks on C1 for example, if I've already recorded all drum parts? Is it not possible to select all C1 notes on a track if other notes are recorded?"

the trick is to put your kicks, snares, hats etc on different tracks then you can quantise, shift, swing whatever you want and leave the rest as they fall
if they are already recording you just need to copy the tracks and delete the instruments you don't want on each one - a bit fiddly but its ok

Bezo wrote:Can I scroll freely through the sequence? Can I skip ahead to the 15th bar for example, and edit a note?

With the transport buttons you can step by TC amounts and full measures, plus you can use Go To. If the cursor is over the beat field, you can quickly scroll through all measures (and all time divisions below).

I should've said view, not mode. It's just a view that shows each note's expression value.

If you set the track type to INST, you can then go in the seq edit to see a notes duration graphically. Otherwise, when in step edit mode, you can see and edit all note (and all other midi data) parameters numerically. In step edit you can have it show only specific events to help with editing.

But no. What I'm looking for is placing notes exactly where I want them. The 4K has 960 PPQ resolution. So, if I wanted to place a note at 250, a little later than the 1st 16th note in a beat, could I do that?

You can put anything anywhere you'd like. Typically you work with TC (timing correct values) since it takes forever to scroll through 960 steps, but you can switch in and out of that with the touch of a button.

Ahhh, OK. Are there any CCs that the 4K won't recognize? Actually, I have a Z4. Is it safe to assume the 4K recognizes any CCs that the Z4/8 would recognize?

They are almost identical to each other in terms of the sound engine. The sequencer can work with just about any MIDI command you throw at it. The sound engine can have many parameters mapped to CCs you specify.

Can I define CCs for all sequences and save that, or do I have to define them for every new sequence?

The CCs define sound parameters (in the program), they don't have anything to with sequences. This is something you would need to define every time, but you could always create a template program and start with it when you need it.

fader-pro wrote:Syncs to pro tools just fine.....

Thanks. What method did/do you use?

McSmooth wrote:With the transport buttons you can step by TC amounts and full measures, plus you can use Go To. If the cursor is over the beat field, you can quickly scroll through all measures (and all time divisions below).

If you set the track type to INST, you can then go in the seq edit to see a notes duration graphically. Otherwise, when in step edit mode, you can see and edit all note (and all other midi data) parameters numerically. In step edit you can have it show only specific events to help with editing.

You can put anything anywhere you'd like. Typically you work with TC (timing correct values) since it takes forever to scroll through 960 steps, but you can switch in and out of that with the touch of a button.

They are almost identical to each other in terms of the sound engine. The sequencer can work with just about any MIDI command you throw at it. The sound engine can have many parameters mapped to CCs you specify.

The CCs define sound parameters (in the program), they don't have anything to with sequences. This is something you would need to define every time, but you could always create a template program and start with it when you need it.

Sweet! Thanks for the detailed response!

Bezo wrote:Currently I sequence in Pro Tools(LE with the 002 Rack). I'm doing more & more hip hop nowadays

i use pt hd accell but the midi code is identical - it really does not matter about the features, if you want solid midi timing an mpc (i've never used anything but a 4000) is required -unless someone has a better idea - pt's midi timing is woeful -you've got to make a decision that you can live with the limitations compared to computer software. i've never used logic -don't want to because your going to end up in protools anyway esp for vocals/tdm plugins/delay compensation/etc

feel lucky you have someone like blue haze on your side, login to ebay and buy that 4000

ccone wrote:i use pt hd accell but the midi code is identical - it really does not matter about the features, if you want solid midi timing an mpc (i've never used anything but a 4000) is required -unless someone has a better idea - pt's midi timing is woeful -you've got to make a decision that you can live with the limitations compared to computer software.

Can you share some detail on the method & set up you use? Beat Clock? Time Code? Are you able to sync start points? Is your 4K the master or slave? Do you have the MPC connected to PT digitally(S/PDIF or ADAT) as well as via MIDI cables?

Bezo wrote:Can you share some detail on the method & set up you use? Beat Clock? Time Code? Are you able to sync start points? Is your 4K the master or slave? Do you have the MPC connected to PT digitally(S/PDIF or ADAT) as well as via MIDI cables?

i normally work on live music so i'm in pt 95% of the time -i'm learning the 4000 too and its great not looking at a monitor and hearing back the 4000's timing -i also have an mv now and its great to use that as a sampler (don't want to overload on the 4000 due to load times) -its responds well to the 4000 and its just a good sampler

i use midi clock (or maybe its midi time code) -i've had some issues there but its easy to setup a tempo map in pt using beat detective -force pt to follow the 4000 -its not a big deal, it works -others here could advise something better

no digital connections here -lunchbox with 512's going into an apogee rosetta with an xhd card -would like to add another box with eq and compression.. i did have a big ben connected to the word clock at one point -i don't think its necessary for analog recording

richard wrote:"There are no common cc's on the 4000(other then volume)"

thats not quite true, there are a bunch listed in the midi spec at the end of the user manual - but I think all can be overidden in the program mod matrix

BZZZT !
Correct
And, of course, they don't all quite work correctly

ccone wrote:i normally work on live music so i'm in pt 95% of the time -i'm learning the 4000 too and its great not looking at a monitor and hearing back the 4000's timing

I'm down to about 65% traditional instruments, 35% programmed, but mixed together on most songs.

ccone wrote:i use midi clock (or maybe its midi time code) -i've had some issues there but its easy to setup a tempo map in pt using beat detective -force pt to follow the 4000 -its not a big deal, it works -others here could advise something better

So you use the 4K as the master?

Also, are you able to sync start points? For example, if you're editing the middle of a tune and play from there, do PT & the 4K both start from that same point in the tune?