Concerns about selling Physical Copies

This is a question I'm asking for my friend, SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me)

If SWIM were to release several entirely sample based projects with no sample clearance, would it be possible for SWIM to actually print and sell physical copies without worrying about being sued? How much exposure can SWIM legitimately take on selling records with uncleared samples? Could SWIM sell these records through bandcamp digitally and physically for profit, or is having traceable income associated with the record too risky if it were to ever gain the threshold amount of exposure that puts it in danger of being sued? If other forum members could link SWIM to valuable information about clearing samples at the independent level then SWIM would be very grateful.

Who are some artists that sell sample based music without clearance and how much exposure do they have? Have they been sued? Do they sell digital and physical copies?

SWIM only seeks advice in this matter because SWIM is not financially capable of clearing samples.

Thanks in advance.

i doubt your pal needs to worry unless he is known.

You would have to be making quite a lot of dough before any sample owners start sending you letters.

bandcamp wont likely know either unless you are looping straight chunks that the detectors can pick up... and even then... they probably wont.

I have plenty of sample containing stuff on bandcamp and never got a complaint. I sold plenty of physical and digital copies with no complaints from anyone... however I haven't advertised at all either... it wasn't listed in any blogs, etc.. basically only exposure was those who checked on their own and purchased it... or friends.. or maybe a few people here due to my sig.

This is very reassuring to hear. Thank you for sharing some personal insight into the matter. Hearing of others doing this gives SWIM more confidence in releasing pressings.

It also reassures me that life is kept by the knowledge that freedom is real and everlasting, and that artists can still create.

man, i wanted to do this release on cassette not too long ago and found a place here in canada (actually it was even local) .. the release was basically 100% samples besides a bit of synth bass and s900/s950 bass.. you know the deal.. anyways now it appears that every single disk, tape, or vinyl duplication/pressing place has these forms and contracts you need to fill out in regards to samples..

okay, it would be one thing is there is something noticeable that is a sample.. and maybe it's questionable as to if you have the rights to use it.. but now it's more like.. if anything sounds as if it could possibly be a sample... you need to prove it isn't a sample (kind of like, guilty of sampling unless proven innocent)

the problem with that is, they are treating sample based music as though it's piracy or bootlegged material. (ie: making your own press run of the latest jay-z album to sell)


this sucks, because let's say you didn't sample... you actually recorded some live jamming or you created something in a way to cater to the style of sampling.. and sample based music..... well prove it.

The reason this is a problem is, when you pay and contract them to do the pressings.. you hand them the master.. they listen to it and personally suspect samples.. you are out of your money because you didn't follow the contract of proving your sample free innocence... and they keep your money.

ask DStrukt.. he got nailed that way... and hearing his story made me be extra cautious when shopping around for a printing place online... reading the contracts and documentation.


now, I asked myself why would all these printing places even want to go that far and police what is being printed especially if they are a small company trying to compete.. well it appears they pretty much have to do this now.. or they can get into trouble themselves.

I had read about Dstrukt's predicament somewhere here on the boards a while ago. SWIM will definitely be careful when it comes to actually pressing the physical copies. I know of a few people here In STL that do independent pressing. I also recently made contact with an independent label head in Springfield, MO and we became good friends. He told me they press everything on sight, and even do vinyl runs out of a friend's factory. I'm sure I could get someone I know to help me do a slide press .

honestly i dont think its a matter so much of exposure or money alone as much as it is a combination of many things.

they could be recognisable but the owners don't care (amen brother).
they could be recognisable but the owners don't know...but for how long? (dangermouse)
they could be unrecognisable, and nobody can locate them or they respect the work.
they could be unrecognisable, but somebody with a chip on their shoulder figures it out and decides to run with it.

my point is, with money, it's a gamble.
sure it is probably really beneficial to SWIY if nobody knows who he (she) is, but will that last, and of course SWIY could just get unlucky.
once money is involved you have to accept that there are likely people out there who could potentially work harder to get it themselves.

not to sound negative, i say do it.

honestly seance, if you got a guy to do pressings and duplication... that right there is a resource.. where it may not have been before... it's becoming rarer to find people who will turn the blind eye..

I mean, even if I wanted to press 500 copies of a cd I made to hand out downtown for free... well too bad, prove those drums came from a sample pack you purchased and that they have the rights to give you the rights to distribute them.



so... my solution for my cassette project is fighting fire with fire.. I got a hold of a hundred or so watch tower cassettes (jahova's witness brainwashing tapes) that I will be overdubbing on once my project gets finished... take that JW's and you printing company assholes!

mr_debauch wrote:so... my solution for my cassette project is fighting fire with fire.. I got a hold of a hundred or so watch tower cassettes (jahova's witness brainwashing tapes) that I will be overdubbing on once my project gets finished... take that JW's and you printing company assholes!

That's a radical pressing! Let me know when that comes to fruition. I'd really like to get a copy of that tape, very unique.

The guy I know is about 60, and has been pressing his own records since the 70's. More than likely since it's out of their press he can disassociate his label from the packaging if he's concerned about clearance, but were close enough of friends, so I know he would do it for SWIM.

Hey Seance,

I have known a lot of people to be confused about this kind of thing, and I was for a while too, then I read up on it... lots.

Basically, the bottom line (and even your lawyer will tell you this, as mine did), is that yes, if you sample someone else's master recording, you ARE violating copyright law.

A lot of people ask the proverbial question of "How far can I take sampling before I get myself in trouble?", and the picture is still really hard to make CLEAR.

From everything I have read, and discussed, it seems that sample clearance cases vary on a case by case basis. For example, one paper I read (a Princeton University undergrad thesis on music production and copyright law - I'll include the link), gave different examples of artists who we've all heard of, being sued over failing to clear their samples, and the cases have drastically different outcomes.

One example was 2 Live Crew sampling Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman" (Hah you remember that song Big hairy woman they did?)..
Anyway, 2 Live Crew literally sampled the master on Pretty Woman and even though their song was (copied/looped), and the melodies were very similar, 2 Live Crew still won in court, proving that their song was a parody, and would not interfere with potential buyers who would like to listen to the Original (Roy Orbison) Album. (Because the 2 Live Crew market was OBVIOUSLY very different from Roy's market )... but they DID sample the master! (but they proved that they weren't affecting Roy's cashflow!)

Another example was Beck... remember that guy?.. well this was THE MOST INTERESTING case, because Beck was sued over an album he used samples on, and of course he lost the case, and the publishing/etc. from his record.

A group came along (I forget who they were, but it's listed in the paper and I WILL post this link), but they wanted to challenge the grey areas in sample rights, so, they took the same record that Beck made and got sued for, chopped it and replayed it in a different way, and THEY never got sued!

But these were only 2 examples, and the article is 12 years old, but the link is here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~artspol/stude ... 0JLind.pdf

(Beware, it IS a long read).

Truthfully, with respect to your other questions, I do not think there is a threshold of how famous you can be before the industry starts hawking you for royalties, after all, if the sample is theirs, it is theirs - nuff said, just hope they don't hear it and hate you for it.
But I can definitely tell you (and this is assuming you aren't making an album sampling only ONE band), that if you ever DID get pinched for sampling, they can only come at you for the publishing/etc. of the song that belongs to them. So, you would most likely lose the song (or perhaps the sample) you had been sued for, as opposed to your whole album and music career. Mind you, if you have distribution in place you might lose some money if you have to reprint your record to sell it.

All in all I would say you could print your CD's AND sell your music online and the odds are that no one would ever know. I encourage you to try it and see where it gets you. Pharoahe Monch is still the last (relevant-important) person I have heard of getting sued, and that's because Simon Says blew up as big as it did with the Godzilla sample. I know of atleast one producer that has been sued by a peer rapper.

... And the extent of copyright law in Canada so far is between a singer and a co-writer of their own song, arguing over who wrote which part... petty, but it's good news for sample based cats.

I hope some of what I said becomes part of your solution. I recommend reading up on it (especially the paper I posted) if you have the time, and then just go for it.

great post peesnuts! Yeah sometimes we talk about this stuff around here because it always seems to be in people's minds "well should I be afraid at my low level, or should I take the chance in the name of doing what we love?" know what I mean? Cause we aren't trying to offend anyone or make beats with malicious intent... it's just to spread a vibe and get some heads bobbing... I know you know what I mean and can relate..

it's always that dilemma of.. should I risk it?

Respect mr_Debauch...

Yeah I was there too, as I'm sure most people are... I researched the sampling thing quite extensively, and basically didn't move forward after my lawyer said "Tell you what, try it out, if you still have these same questions we will talk more after". - I truly think the industry is STILL more concerned with bootleggers, than sample heads, being because of the state of the industry online. - nuff said.

It's good that hip hop heads respect the business of music enough to concern themselves with legalities BEFORE they end up like Biz Mark.

Really though, ain't nothing to it but to do it.

P

yeah, like a couple of years ago I just rolled with what ever sounds good in all my music samples or not... but these days I have a separate set of projects where from the get go I am making sure no sampled material is used... OK, I still have other work I make with piles of samples but that is done because I love it and because those projects will not be aimed at commercial sales related people or projects etc...

it's a shame to have to do that...