produce or engineer

ok im a little bit confused bout the engineer and the producer for exmaple kanye or timbaland or toomp they make the beat right but sometimes dont they record the track too like timbaland he makes the beat but does he record the artist as well

They are all known as producers, they may have engineering skills, but are primarily producers.

googlem www.google.com

Timbaland is known as Timothy Z. Mosley (born March 10, 1971), is an American record producer, composer, rapper, and singer. Primarily known for his work in urban pop, Timbaland has produced albums and singles for a number of artists from the mid-1990s to the present day.

Timbaland's first production work was Ginuwine...the Bachelor for Ginuwine, in 1996; the album was both a commercial and critical success. He was later contacted by Aaliyah to help produce her second album, One in a Million, which went on to sell over 11 million copies worldwide. In 2000, Timbaland produced several hit songs including Ludacris' "Rollout (My Business)", and contributed three singles to Aaliyah's self-titled third album. Embracing an international audience, he helped produce three tracks for Japanese Pop star Utada Hikaru's debut English album, Exodus.

In 2006 Timbaland collaborated with Nelly Furtado and Justin Timberlake which resulted in multiple million selling albums and singles for both artists. In 2007 Timbaland released the album Shock Value, a commercial success, while 2008 saw Timbaland help produce Madonna's new album, Hard Candy.

The Producer is the artist
the dude with the taste
his record collection is dipped into
When he says
Yo your spitting off beat
or your talking shit can you back that up
you listen

The engineer on the other hand is the dude no one listens to
yet
he is the dude who knows how everything works
how to hook all the wires up and make them need be
etc
so the engineer is sorta like the shoe maker of music
you bring him your broke shoes and he fixes em

But he aint about to design a shoe

However if he did
that would be some shoe

These days though
Everything has become customizable
and its hard not to have engineering skills
as a producer
But Engineers generally have a more behind the scenes roll
and are more technicians than artists
well no
there technical ability is there art

Here is a way to test which you are

Are you an engineer ?

Do artists annoy you ?
Do you get more excited for the way the machine functions work
over the music that is being made?

Do you read manuals like novels ?
Would you rather goto the namm show than a record convention?
and do you not really like music all that much?

If you answer yes to all this
than your probably an engineer


I think most of us as a little bit of both
engineer and producer and of course solo artists
I can admit I bought my MPC years ago
because musicians would not play what i wanted them to
so much easier to program things

Lots of gross generalizations here
beaware im using this thing we have in ny called
sarcasim

one guy builds a race car and the other guy drives it.

Are you confirming that its two seperate hats?
Well yes but
my point is getting your chocolate in the peanut butter or vice versa
makes a peanut butter cup
and these days most producers would benefit from bing dj peanut butter cup
Ya feel me
actually that is another hip hop term id like to put to bed
Pause
no homo
those two I still like lol

empeecee.P wrote:my point is getting your chocolate in the peanut butter or vice versa
makes a peanut butter cup
and these days most producers would benefit from bing dj peanut butter cup
Ya feel me

and they say the US education system is failing today's youth....

dopedee wrote:one guy builds a race car and the other guy drives it.

Great analogy!

To be clear on the rest though.

Artist are interested in music or lyrics, but s/he usually doesn't understand all the gear or how to work it.

Engineer knows all the gear, is very technical and usually not really thinking about abstract things like art while stroking his API 550a original.

We are confronted with a major conflict now! These two "species" of people speak different languages. One musical jargon, the other tech lingo.

Enter the producer. The producer is the person who serves as a translator by helping the artist transform and realize their musical and sometimes abstract ideas into a marketable and plausible idea that can be realized through technical and/or mechanical means. S/he may or may not know the gear, but even most of the ones that do don't know the gear or the studio like the engineer, assistant engineers, or tapeOp guys. Producers however do know how to bring the best out of people and how to bring the best out of ideas and make them into a record!

------------------------ here's a scenario.
Artist says to producer: Somethings not right about my guitar. It sounds ugly.
Producer says to engineer: Can you brighten up the Les Paul? The artist and I think it's a bit muddy and lacks presence, a little nasal even.
Engineer says to producer: A little bit of the 1176 at 4:1 to firm it up maybe? Aaannd....how about a 3dB or so cut at 270 cycles with a high Q and just a little bit out at 8k? Maybe even a slight shelf up from 12k, slightly reasonant?
Producer says to engineer: Yeah. That should do it and it should make it seem more upfront in the mix.
Producer says to artist: Sounding more musical?
Artist says to producer: Wow....that sounds like a record!

This is typical daily studio convo.

There is no hierarchy! An engineer is not a beginner producer, lots of producers couldn't even begin to engineer and vice versa. These are all specialty positions, ideally involving people who are experts at what they do. Not many producers go around talking about dither, SRC algorithms, bias, transformers, gain staging, op-amps, acoustics and differences between convolution engines! Engineers often do. On the same note, not many engineers are experts at dealing with wild artists egos, knowing what session musicians to hire, getting the arranger in on time, dealing with office A&R folks, staying on budget, nor which studio to pick for that engineer who "gets you"! The best producers do! To go even further.....neither producers nor engineers usually know as much about music theory as musicians! Producers know how to direct a project and the people involved. Engineers know what gear does "what", the best, and at best, how to fix it if it breaks down (top engineer know quite a bit about electronics!). And let's not began to talk about the fact that you have recording engineers, mix engineers, mastering engineers, etc, all of which are their own isolated specialty niche. Now, sometimes you do get people who do multiple jobs, but that is an exception, not the rule. And their definitely is no hierarchy involved. Sometimes an engineer becomes a producer, sometimes a producer becomes a musician, sometimes one person records and mixes and performs......but it's not the de facto standard.

Note: A producer only makes beats if you're in hip hop or electronic music. Outside the hip hop world we call these people "beatmakers" because they often don't "produce" or direct the session per se.

Just my 50 bucks.

They are all known as producers, they may have engineering skills, but are primarily producers.

Agreed.

Timbo and Kanye are there during the mix sometimes, but they don't engineer nada usually. They have engineers who they work with religiously on albums.....but they don't do so themselves. Check the facts....this is the internet....it ain't hard to find, guys.

ok im a little bit confused bout the engineer and the producer for exmaple kanye or timbaland or toomp they make the beat right but sometimes dont they record the track too like timbaland he makes the beat but does he record the artist as well

The producer helps get the best performance out of the artists. The recording engineer records the best performance the producer got out of the artists. A different or sometimes the same engineer mixes the song. Another comes and pre-masters it and specs it to be mastered at the plant.

Good Job "The Machinist"..... glad you could break it down for these peeps... i tried to keep it short and simple, but nice details homie.....

Machinist
Do you aree that this can also be done by ear in a creative fashion?
I rarely hear something and think 12k or 3db at 270 cycles
Rather I think that mic has no high end and too much bass
Lets turn the low freq down and find the sweet spot with the sweepable eq knob
until it sounds good and ad some more highs

I respect technical people very much but in my experience as a jack of all trades
both hat wearing musician /engineer modern day producer
I would say the technical people I encounter everyday in my boring day job as a broadcast engineer
have a mega chip on there shoulders about there knowledge and proper vanacular
and often seem like they resent artists and never compose there own works
This does not appear to help any great music get made
Just strokes egos
Do you find you come into contact with engineers like this?

That is why I respect people like Brian Eno and more so Lee Perry C oxsone and many roots reggae and lofi producers very very much
The exceptions to the rule the innovators seem to follow the golden rule
to listen and follow there heart
That goes for engineers and musicians a like

Just my Opinion

Yes, I come across arrogant mofos all the time, techy people and even newbs. I also come across great people who teach me a lot, techy people and newbs. I dunno, I think there's going to always be both. I think the assholes and good people come about in even manner, in my experience.

I've definitely come across people who will even call something a "thingie"....yet when they move it, magic comes out. These people just instinctively know what will sound good, but don't even get into the tech limbo. Some people do hear things as an approximate of frequency or distortion, others simply hear it by lo-mids, mids, hi-mid, etc, others just dial it in until it sound "right". I don't think any of these people are superior or inferior to each other, the end result is really what matters. And I've seen all kinds. I know a 81yr old designer who can say, "No No No....that amp has too many nulls, 1@50Hz, another at 349 and another at 8kHz to 13kHz that's combed all the way through".....and damned if he isn't spot on.

I definitely think that engineering can and most of the times is a creative undertaking as it does take aesthetics into consideration. Sometimes recording engineers don't have as much freedom as one would like if they're working with a producer or a demanding artists. Sometimes one person does both the recording and producing with a assistant, in which cause it becomes a total art form. Mixing definitely can be considered a creative engineering task as we're usually playing the role of another hybrid musician and/or arranger.....assisting in the overall emotion and expression of the song.

I don't think it's pretension when people talk very technically, it just sometimes habitual because they've learned to think that way. Obviously some of them are being haughty though, but a lot aren't just like with anything I guess. A lot of a engineers day is spent dealing with electronics and measurement utilities and measurement units (decibel, hertz, ohms, watts, volts, etc) so they just learn to express in those terms so as not to have to abstractly attempt to elaborate using "common words" -- which is often hard. However, some people don't and it's nothing wrong with that. All of this means nothing if it doesn't sound good or work, so I think that the most important thing IS a good set of ears, creativity and experience. Tech speak does help you communicate to a varied group of people involved in a production. Ever had to talk to a presser at the mastering planet who got something on the PQ list wrong, and now wants to know all the correct offsets and operating levels of the equipment you use, "dBu, dBm, dBV"..."-10, +4" he says! The premastering engineer will save your ass, but not always as he may also call you before the presser. Sometimes some tech knowledge is good, like when gain-staging (calibration) or reading and understanding specs so that you can know what you actually want to take the time out to hear.

But, music is first and foremost a listening art. It is second a manual doing of the art. It is the lastly a art form to critique and discuss in it's finished form. Tech speak falls into the latter.

I'll just quote one of my biggest influences here, "Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration." - Thomas Edison. I believe this to mean that the idea and knowing what you want to achieve is superior to knowing how to explain or even achieve the idea.

^^^^ so much truth spoken

I agree with you very much
I am spending a lot of time in the Yamaha Sound Hankbook
so tech speak becomes natural to me
However being a former "thingle" saying person and dealing in the everyday world
of a technical job it does me good the more technical I can learn to speak
However I have noticed two things
One if you make a mistake with tech speak you almost sound dumber than you
do when saying thingy or whatchamacallit and people attack you a lot harder (no homo)
when you say something incorrect with tech speak
Like calling an input a track etc .
On the other hand I have seen countless times people use tech speak as a means
to confuse a common person outside of the loop of the audio world
in order to either over charge them or talk them out of there artistic vision

I get upset when I see that
As far as my lack of knowledge on any given thing
when someone gets on me about speaking technical if there intention is to educate
and they teach with respect for me it motivates me to get in the books and learn
When they are flexing there technical muscles to berate me it makes me happy that bedroom producers exist
and have revolutionized the game
Ever notice that the majority of old school seasoned engineers get very irate
when you talk about hip hop and reggae production yet never talk badly about blues recordings
I attribute this to the fact that rock and roll appropriated blues and a lot of seasoned audio people
got there start and wrote there books in this golden era
there knowledge usually does not extend to the golden era of hip hop production
and basement diy experimentation
Don't even get me started on avant garde music noise and no wave
you wanna talk about the black sheep of the audio world
try telling a corporate audio guy that you are working on putting out a series of noise cassettes
or that you enjoy Albert Ayler records
All this being said we are on a MPC forum so we all must know this and I sure am preaching to the converted

I respect everything you have said here
except one thing Edison
He had slaves and he stole a lot from Tesla
but I did love visiting his workshop when I was a kid on a class trip
and of course love is inventions and innovations
but clearly we all have our flaws and sometimes are flaws lead to great things
like phase or echo
But I don't think I can forgive edison for keeping slaves the hamite **** !

Just saying
Respect
Flex Unger

empeecee.P wrote:One if you make a mistake with tech speak you almost sound dumber than you
do when saying thingy or whatchamacallit and people attack you a lot harder

That's the same as saying you used a "word" in the wrong context or gave someone the wrong definition. I've found that it's quite hard to correct someone and not come off as being offensive. However, some people will always have negative intentions and for those people it's better to get away from them as quickly as possible as they will become an "old and fated anchor" who will try to wear you down - They'll always find something to be critical about. Here's a way to tell what people's intentions are: Ask yourself, were you really incorrect. Ask yourself was the correction vital to the topic of discussion. Are they critiquing you with positive and negative comments, or just being over-critical? Ask yourself do they talk more than listen. Do they only correct you, or do they add something worthwhile to the subject matter? The answer will become obvious as to if they are intent on being constructive or destructive.

empeecee.P wrote:Like calling an input a track etc .

Then they are wrong. Though not the same thing, when mixing you do have an "input track" if running tape into the console, as well as an output track when going to a multi-track or even master 2 track machine.

empeecee.P wrote:On the other hand I have seen countless times people use tech speak as a means
to confuse a common person outside of the loop of the audio world
in order to either over charge them or talk them out of there artistic vision

Unfortunately this is one of those "buyer beware" things that happens in any industry. Ever have G.A.S for something you don't need, or feel the need to update your DAW for a feature that is only new in your DAW but not generally? Or ever watch a demonstration of a new tech feature that you haven't tried yet somehow deep inside you "can't wait til this comes out"? Ever buy something you didn't like? Car salesmen, gear salesmen, hell politicians all do this. It's called manipulation. Even the graphic design that makes you think one site is more professional or one product is "on brand" and the other "off brand" or that one is better quality is along these lines of marketed manipulation. This is why it's important to be techy at times, as to not be horsefed bullshiz. I'm starting to believe that most everything today that we consider art, entertainment, or the market in general is nothing more than propaganda.

empeecee.P wrote:when someone gets on me about speaking technical if there intention is to educate
and they teach with respect for me it motivates me to get in the books and learn

Yes, we all need positive people in our lives. However, even this can become a stumbling block as people who are too sympathetic too your feelings lack the strictness it takes at times to really teach you to deal with the ethics and praxis involved in this industry. Sometimes you need someone who isn't a friend, or resonant to you ideas, to really be a positive and driving influence. I've been involved in visual art since I was a child, and the best teacher I ever had in this arena was one who'd ball up my sketches and tell me to start over! He taught me to try harder and to think out my idea before I even started to draw or paint.

empeecee.P wrote:Ever notice that the majority of old school seasoned engineers get very irate
when you talk about hip hop and reggae production yet never talk badly about blues recordings

I think this is because it's often harder to record those genres of music. Whereas a lot of people believe you can just make a beat and put a rapper in the iso booth and make Hip Hop (which isn't always untrue). Most of those genres need large sprawling rooms, knowledge of instruments, micing techniques, and expertise on shaping a "sound".......and a lot of them believe Hip Hop just comes along and samples somebody else "sound" throws drums on it, a few synth stabs, and calls it their own. I've had this debate with them, but I have to admit, sometimes it isn't too far fetched. It is us who are doing ourselves a disservice by not learning the methods of our history, not the other way around. They're retiring, they've done their work, it is thus up to us to preserve and reinvent their method not just augment or half-ass them.

empeecee.P wrote:Don't even get me started on avant garde music noise and no wave

The avant-garde is a totally different extreme than Hip Hop though. I'd actually call them opposites, as one is pushing the envelope and one is revisiting the norm. Sometimes the techniques resemble but that's about it to me. I haven't seen a Hip Hop Brian Eno, yet.

empeecee.P wrote:there knowledge usually does not extend to the golden era of hip hop production

....however Hip Hop samples them. That's not an inferior or superior outlook, it's just something to consider. Not to mention most people in Hip Hop knowledge usually doesn't extend into their vintage era either, sometimes it doesn't even extend beyond their own genre. I can name too many people I know who have no knowledge or interest in music that isn't Hip Hop.

empeecee.P wrote:try telling a corporate audio guy that you are working on putting out a series of noise cassettes
or that you enjoy Albert Ayler records

Corps will look at you wad eyed if you say you're creating anything but mainstream music. If it doesn't sound like something that's on VH1, BET, MTV1-4, or such you'll get the same effect. I don't watch any of these channels, so I'm just speaking generally.

empeecee.P wrote:golden era

Something to think about. A lot of beat producers or other people involved in "golden era" Hip Hop don't even like todays Hip Hop, respect it, and often don't have the programming or conceptual skills to extend upon and into it. Should we expect people who produced or tracked Jazz, Blues, Rock, and such of yesteryear to be any more or less privy? Some of these people are dinosaurs and it's kind of hard to embrace all this music when the studio is often a vacuum.

empeecee wrote:Edison

Notice I said influence, not inspiration. All things are an influence to me: Art, this forum, the person I'll meet next, the amount of rest I get, what I think, what you think, it's all influence. I embrace all influence, and I cannot apologize on the behalf of the people or things which influence me. It's unfortunate that humanity is often a lacking in humanity, but people were slaves because they were kept uneducated. That doesn't really involve me, except for the fact that I'm human. Freedom is information.

Not to mention: >Insert Rapper< has slaves. They're called our youth who are being told that it's okay to be "gangsta" or some feces that's lacking in humanity. >Insert Rockstar< has them too. He teaches them that overzealous sex and self-loathing is good! Buy another CD! Governments also have slaves. They're called the moot and oblivious public. You'll need lots of fingers to disapprove of the shortcomings of mankind friend. Just brainstorming, there are too many to name these just happen to be the first I thought. Having slaves or enslaving people is just flowers wrong, but no more so than anything else we've done or continue to do. Does war pardon us from being human? No? Then why...or rather how do we still take sides?

Not to re-vamp this topic, but I think what separates the Engineer and Producer is $$. The two fields really cannot mix because it is a question of compensation/credits. An engineer has to use caution when suggesting ideas outside his/her realm of expertise to an artist or project. If that happens he/she has to be credited as such on the album. Of course this only happens in big paying jobs. At least that is when one engineer told me.

donjuan831 wrote:Not to re-vamp this topic, but I think what separates the Engineer and Producer is $$. The two fields really cannot mix because it is a question of compensation/credits. An engineer has to use caution when suggesting ideas outside his/her realm of expertise to an artist or project. If that happens he/she has to be credited as such on the album. Of course this only happens in big paying jobs. At least that is when one engineer told me.

are there alot of ppl that do both or one of them on the side