Synth+MPC2500 MIDI Issue

Hi,

I am totally new to the MPC world and my question might sound stupid but I need your help here.

I MIDI synced my Korg M1 which is also sending audio to Record In on the MPC.

I recorded a piano line on a Track (Type: MIDI, Pgm:OFF, Midi: 1A).

Now, I create another track on the MPC (same parameters as the other track) to record a bassline. But when I change the program on the Korg to Bass, the piano line that I have previously turns into a bassline.

How can I do to record different tracks with different programs from the Korg (piano, bass, trumpet...) ?

I hope you understood my problem and sorry if it is too dumb but I am really new to music hardware.

Best
Matt

hello!

seems you are using the m1 in either "program mode" or in "combination mode" - both those modes are only for using one program or combination at a time.

to get the m1 to respond with different sounds to midi messages on different channels you need to get into "sequencer mode" (F0-1) and set it to "multichannel" ([C] Tr: MLT).
now you can switch to (F1-1) "track program" and set the program or combination number for the sounds you want to play on the different tracks.
the same way you can set the volume for the tracks in (F1-2) "track volume" and make sure all the tracks are set to "EXT" on the "track status page" (F1-3).
in (F1-4) "midi ch" you can change the midi channels, but the default 1-8 should work.

now for some settings in the "global mode" (F5-1): set [D] "CLK" to "EXT" and [G] "local" to "OFF" so the m1 is now following the midi clock from the mpc and with the "local off" you avoid to trigger the sounds of the m1 double from the mpc sequencer AND from the m1 keyboard. so if you hit a key on the m1 it sends midi to the mpc sequencer and from there to the tone generator in the m1 to trigger sounds. you now will allways hear the sound that is set to the corresponding midi channel that is set on your mpc track (1A, 2A, etc.) and switching to track 2 will no longer change the sound on track 1.

this should be enough to get you going for now to reach the goal of your question.
however in the future you can also experiment with things like "program change" on the m1 which can be used to recall all the programs used in a track or sequence directly from the mpc when you load that project without the need to store or manually recall anything on the m1 - all is stored on the mpc.

peace, jo

Hey Jo,

thanks for your detailed answer. I'm starting to see where I'm going there.

However, I am stuck on the Track Program page. I pick a program for Track 1, fine. But when I go over the other tracks to change the program and get different sounds to play, I still hear Track 1 program playing. And that's the same for every other tracks (2,3,4...)

Before that I did change the sequence mode to MLT.

Any idea ?

Matt

did you also change to the next track on the mpc? the mpc passes midi directly to the m1 on the active track only! otherwise it would play ALL sounds at once if you hit a key on the keyboard.
that means to hear the sound you choose for tr 1-8 on the m1 you have to be on the same track 1A-8A on your mpc. if you got it right then you should hear the same sound if you press a key on the m1 or hit a pad on the mpc.
when you have recorded something to the different tracks on the mpc, then it will pass it to the m1 on all selected midi channels at once, so you hear all the instruments for your sequence.

check the midi channels on the m1 in (F1-4)"midi ch" and make sure they are not set to the same channel but set from 1 to 8.
also check the settings on the mpc in mode->pad9(midi/sync)->F1(midi) and set "soft thru" to "as track".

midi is not that complicated - but setting up a multitimbral synth seems to be difficult for many people.
do you have the user manuals for the m1 and the mpc?

peace, jo

Jo,

thanks for your answer, can't wait to get back home and follow your instructions. I am sure MIDI is not that complicated but it is a bit hard to handle in the beginning.

I do have a manual for my MPC but not for M1. I found an online copy though.

I will post again tonight and give you feedback about your last post.

However, I need to sort out another tricky thing your mentioned at the end of your fist post : saving ("recall", as you wrote)the M1 programs used on the different tracks of the MPC. Yesterday, I made a test: I turned off the MPC and the Korg after having saved the ENTIRE MEMORY on the MPC. When I switched on again the two, the MIDI notes were still there on the MPC track, but it did not recall the M1 program that I used. Obviously, something trickier must be done there to make it work, I suppose !

Could you please elaborate ?

Thank you again for your great help here.

Best
Matt

saving the entire memory to a new folder each time and never ever overwrite anything is the best way to avoid save/load errors in my experience - and i never lost anything or had any load errors since i use this mpc 2500 - so use that way for all saving and delete unused folders later.

the "trick" to get the mpc save the programs for the m1 is easy, but a little bit hidden and you might have to search some further information depending on the synth used.

it goes like this: first make sure that program change is enabled on the synth - in case of the m1 this is in global mode (F5-2) [B] "prog": ENA - now the m1 will change the selected program/combination if you send that message from the mpc.

on the mpc you have to look at the "pgm" field in the main screen. for a midi track change this to "no.1" - now you can turn the data wheel and see that increasing the number on the mpc will change the program on the m1.
this is only the basic function as there are only 127 possible program numbers, but many synths offer more preset slots than that (for instance my quasimidi quasar has 300 performances and way over 1000 single sounds that i could access) so how do we get to those sounds?
if you hit the window button on the "pgm: no.1" field you will see the program change screen where you can set the bank change and the "msb" and "lsb" numbers for the sound you want on this track and enable program change on this track.
now where to find these numbers? normally they are in the manual of the synth somewhere, either as a dedicated list exactly for this purpose or the msb and lsb are only found in the midi implementation chart as abstract information and you have to find out by trial and error which numbers initiate a bank change and which choose a program number. on some synths the programs start at 0 on others at 1, some use a format of 10ths, like the m1 with 100 programs, others use a format of 8ths with 128 programs. for the m1 i don´t know the numbers but i will look it up tonight.
so now if you selected every program/combination from the mpc in the program change window that settings will be saved with your sequence and if you load it again (AND press play at least one time, because the program change has to be sent to the synth), then it will switch all programs on the m1 to the saved values. working this way you even can change all of your used sounds when you switch from one sequence to another as the new programs get called automatically.

your post inspired me to get to my storage today and pull three synths out to play around a bit and so i have now my m1, a wavestation and that little micron sitting here. if there are more questions then now i can better see for myself what is the right settings on the m1.

peace, jo

Hey Jo,

glad you took out your old synths from the garage !

I started following your steps to save the M1 programs on the MPC. On the No. 1 window (Program Change), do you leave Bank select at "NO" ? And Transmit program changes in this track at "YES" ? Also I don't get the difference between MSB and LSB. In which one should I put the M1 Track program number (ex: I76 for Analog Bass) ?

I will keep on following your instructions for this part, as soon as I have solved a problem that occured. For now, I'll just SAVE ENTIRE MEMORY on the MPC, and load the M1 programs one by one when I will turn it on again.
Here is my problem :

-> I recorded 4 tracks on the MPC from 4 different programs on the M1. At some point, I wanted to change some parameters on the M1 (I wanted to change one of the program Pan, dunno if it's even possible on the M1) by pushing "Page +". For some reason, every programs got reset so I had to re-assign every track programs that I first selected. It happened another time when I went into Global and then went back to Seq. It even resets the Sequencer mode to Tr1 (before it was MLT). Actually, it happens every time I go out of Seq. And now, it also happens when I push Play Start on the MPC to play the sequence: instantly, all the M1 programs get reset (this does not happen when I push Play). There must be a conflict with the MPC happening somewhere... I'd like to solve this ASAP in order to be ready to properly set up saving.

Another remark :
I also noticed that sometimes, even if I select the right track on the MPC (assigned to the right MIDI channel), it happens that when I push a note on the M1, two track programs are playing together (ex: the MPC currently selected track program + one of the others). This happens randomly. To get rid of the second track program being heard at the same time, I change the MPC selected track program on the M1 and it goes away.

______________

Jo, I have one last concern for that post, that I tried solving but I think it's a bit tricky :
on the MPC2500, we have sliders and knobs on the left (Q-links). Is it possible to assign them to one of the M1 Program's filter, or effect, or even volume ? That is, controlling a M1 program's parameters with the MPC's Q-link ?
If you like, ignore that last concern. I can come back to this later (or in another topic).

______________

I know I come up with loads of concerns/questions/remarks/issues (maybe I should split these in different topic) but as all these questions are, to me, the fundamentals when it comes to bring a synth and a MPC together, this might be helpful for anyone who gets onto this one topic.
Also, I find that you are one hell of a teacher! Your instructions are SPOT ON. Massive props to you Jo.

Best,
Matt

hello!

so even if you not wrote it explicitly i assume that your original problem of having different sounds on different tracks is now resolved? minus some little details?

funny - when searching for some more info on the msb/lsb numbers i found an older thread on this forum with the same topic as yours in which i also paticipated, and it has almost the same infos in there. http://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59715

so the first thing i found out is that it IS possible to use the m1 as a multitimbral sound module in combination mode also. previously i was under the assumption that combi mode was only there for layered or split sounds, but actually it also can be used in multimode. as i used the sequencer mode for that i had no need to look for alternative ways.

when i think about it it must have been somewhere in the 90ies where i used the combination mode for more than one sound. we had only 16 midi channels then but we used a lot of soundmodules and synths so often we had to use one midi channel for several sounds and that is when we used split mode a lot. that was a great way back then but now we have at least 64 midi channels so we don´t need it anymore.

in combination edit mode you can make a combination that actually is a multi with up to eight different parts and select a different midi channel for each part - as opposed to most of the combinations that are in the default sound library - those are for the most part on one midi channel only, which is perfect for layered sounds.
the difference to the sequencer mode is that you can´t change the individual programs in the combination from the mpc and so you have to make a new combination for a new song, or change the old one and then your previous work is gone.

so even if the combination mode has its advandages i would only use it if i had to prepare for a live gig with different songs. then i would make one combination for every song and just switch one combination up for the next song. this way i would have all the correct sounds in the m1 itself in case anything goes wrong with the mpc.

for studio use i will stick to the sequencer mode, even if that also has its odds, because the biggest advantage opposed to the combination mode is that you only have to use one song in seq mode for all different tracks that are triggered from the mpc, even if there are a lot of program changes. so both ways do roughly the same but with some little differences.

what i observed today while looking on how to change the pan of a sound like you asked is, if you go some pages up in the sequencer to get to the track parameter page (F4-1) then all tracks will revert back to the default *I00 program, like you wrote. that is a bit inconvenient, because now you can´t hear the real sound while making adjustments to the pan [F] 9:1-1:9, but if you then go back some pages to the track program page (F1-1) then your original sounds will be back again (maybe sometimes you have to hit play to send that program change once more).

on the m1 there are only 100 usable programs so it would be enough to just use the "pgm: no.1" parameter on the mpc to select any of them. no need to change anything in the program change window, just leave as it is (bank select: no; msb:0; lsb:0; transmit program changes: yes). this way you can save the programs on their tracks with the mpc sequence and it gets recalled the next time. the programs are offset by one digit, but i assume you realized this by now.

how to use combinations this way? hm, tricky - the manual says that you can access the programs and combinations in sequencer mode, but if i try this it only shows my 100 programs and then the list ends - there is no way to select the combinations.
so i have to find out why it is in the manual when it is not working on the hardware.

another thing i found out (well actually i knew that for ages, but forgot somehow): everytime you power up the m1 some settings get reverted and that might be the cause for your double triggering of some sounds, because local control gets turned on again and then every keystroke from the m1 triggers twice.
the two things that get reset every power up are in the midi global settings in global mode (F5-1) CLK and Local - so you have to change them to CLK: EXT and Local: OFF everytime you power the synth.
it is a little inconvenient hat those parameters will not stick, but takes only a few seconds to change.

now for the use of the q-link fader and knobs for transmitting midi-cc values - that would be great and i asked akai to implement it since 2006! but they had other plans and now i don´t think that we will ever get an official os update with that functionality as the mpc 2500 is also a discontiued product now. maybe this functions are in the alternative os as disscussed in the other subforum on this board, but i don´t use that os so i don´t know.

one little trick to use combinations (sort of) in sequencer mode is to select different programs for the layers and the just set the midi channels to the same number so that several tracks are now triggered simultainious - it is not exactly the same as in combination mode but will work for some simple layering.

so now i have a new self challenge: make songs using just ONE synth for every sound - no samples, no other instruments or effects, only what is inside the synth and sequence from the mpc... let´s see how far i can get...

peace, jo

another addition: the main difference between the play and the playstart button on the mpc is that the playstart button will first send a "go back to bar 1" command and this also could affect the m1, because it also has a sequencer even if we don´t use it in our scenario.
to find out what the mpc sends exactly i have to hook it up to the computer and monitor the midi messages that get sent.
then i can see how this messages can be possibly ignored by the m1 if they lead to problems.

peace, jo

Hey Jo,

first of all, YES, I had my original problem solved by changing the track program of the MPC. Sounds pretty logical now I know (thanks to you) how to do it, but it is not so natural at first !

Now that I followed your instructions for setting up Pgm No, saving does work on the MPC. however I still can't figure out how to solve the following :

1) on the M1, each time that I exit SEQ (to go to GLOBAL, or PROG, or any other modes), it resets everything in SEQ : sequence mode goes back to Tr1, one track program or more get reset, etc. Even with the right Pgm No. for each track on the MPC. Should I force myself to stay into SEQ all the time when I'm building a track ? I guess I can do that since it is possible to edit each program directly in SEQ, however I can't move from the first screen in SEQ, see my second point :

2) Pgm No. are all set on the MPC for each midi track. OK. But when I press Play Start on the MPC (even if I stop it afterwards), the M1 screen gets stuck on the first page of SEQ ("SONG0...Oh Yes!1....") and the cursor position is stuck on MIDI. I can't move from there, so I can't adjust the tracks' volume, pan or edit effects or anything... What's happening here ?

(Are you sure that I must leave MSB and LSB to 0 ?)

3) About our last observation on Play and Play Start : a conflict occurs when I press Play, that is when I play the track not from the beginning: track programs get changed randomly. I notice that when I do that, on the M1, on the "SONG0" screen in SEQ (the one I am stuck on), M001 turns into M002 when the second bar is played, M003 when the third bar is played, etc. But when I press Play Start, it does not change at all.

UPDATE while I'm writing: I am not stuck anymore on the "SONG0" screen when I use Play instead of Play Start. But then if I use Play, it changes my track programs, as I wrote before. Aaaarghh !!!

UPDATE2 : so many conflicts occuring, I don't get why... Now the M1 track programs varies whether I select a MIDI track on the MPC or a Drum track (as I also have drum samples here): if I select a drum track, everything is playing as I want. But when I select MIDI Track01 on the MPC, the M1 corresponding program gets changed, when I select MIDI Track02 on the MPC, same thing for the M1 corresponding program... When I select a Drum track, every MIDI tracks just play the M1 program that they are linked to.
I must have some electronics problems in the M1, it's not possible otherwise.

Do you remember having had that much problems when starting to use the MPC+M1 ....?
______________

For your new self challenge, well....that's what I am doing as well, but I add drum samples to it.

hello!

the concept of the sequencer mode on the m1 was meant to stay there permanently - that eight track internal sequencer was one of its main selling points, making it one of the first modern workstation synths, which could be used to make a complete track including drums.
sound design and composing often were seperate steps of the process then, due to this reduced direct control in all those new digital equipment. in the era before digital, those two steps were more fused together as there simply were more knobs to turn on the analog gear.
so either if you use the m1 sequencer or sequence from the mpc i think there is no real need to go to any other mode. but that depends on how much you tweak the sounds while you compose. some people do lay some serious time and work just to get the sounds right.
sometimes i do that too, but most of the time i compose using fairly standard sounds as i write a lot of music for regular band setting so the instuments are often the same.
that is totally different if i do an electronic or club track - there the sounds are more important to be right from the start of the composing process.
for the most part i stay on the track program page on the seq mode and only change one page up to the track volume page to balance my tracks. and i tend to write very quick, one track after the other to get to a rough sequence running fast and then make some variations and a fast arrangement on the mpc. with that basic song i pick up other (real) instruments and start to improvise over that and see if i find some good melodies going.

at the end it all gets dumped into logic to maybe add even more sounds and maybe also vocals and to get mixed.

for your quirky acting m1 - did you do anything to it since you got it? reset it to factory settings? or are you first exploring the leftovers of the previous owner? one always should do that... sometimes there is hilarious good sound settings and sequences hidden in used gear that can be of great inspiration.
but doing a factory reset, (maybe a change of the battery if the synth seems to forget all its settings each time it is turned off) and setting everything right for the own usage is definately the next first step to do, because it has to work for you from now on.
read all the manual, even the sections you don´t need right now, because sometimes there is the bit of information that was missing in the big picture if you just read the parts that you needed.
old equipment can have hardware defects from old batteries to dry capacitors to broken keys, so be perpared to search infos on how to deal with that type of problems.
but the good part is that the m1 might be the most sold workstation synth of all times and so there is plenty of spare parts and knowledge around the internets.

something might not be right with your m1 if it is changing its behaviour for instance when its gets warm after some usage. also the round push buttons often get broken, mostly those with heavy usage like the start/stop button if the previous owners used the sequencer.
or there might be something not right with the midi sync settings on the mpc or the m1?
when i press play or playstart on the mpc i can freely switch between all pages of the seq mode on the m1 so that should be working.
so double check your settings again and see if you find something that might be set wrong. it is a bit like checking a car engine - is there fuel, is there air and is there a spark?
with midi - are the track channels set right, is the clock sync right, is there a midi loop?
that is the bare basics - some instuments offer way more functions than that and every extra function can be a cause of a another problem. even more so if you are new to this and look at the midi settings like one might look at a car engine and go "hm nice, lots of stuff here... looking good... should be working...". so even this small setup of only the mpc and the m1 has so many parameters than can be adjusted i totally understand how complex it can be when you start this.

oh, got carried away a bit here...

actually i had the idea for the one synth challenge after i made some quick sequences to test the hardware and there i used some drum samples on the mpc, so i did the same as you today... and maybe i don´t have to restrict myself that hard, do i?

peace, jo

Hey jo,

I think you're right, I might have to do a reset for the M1. I haven't done anything like this since I got it from the previous owner. Maybe he set it up wrong. I might also buy a new battery as you suggested.

Before that I'll check again all the midi settings on both the MPC and M1. I will dig further to spot where the conflict is. Just one thing though, should I really leave MSB and LSB to 0 on the MPC ? The other guy on the other thread you sent me said otherwise.

I will keep you posted. In the worst case, if midi keeps on going wrong between the two I'll lay down my beats on logic and then record synths over it as audio tracks. But I hope I can make it work perfectly. I will read and learn.

I will keep you posted here.

Btw, I've read that Q-links can control midi on JJOS (the alternative os you mentioned), I might give it a try.

Best
Matt

hello!

you always CAN use the msb/lsb numbers to choose a bank and program number - that is exactly why this function is there. and it MUST be used with synths that offer more than 128 different sounds or programs, like for instance my quasimidi quasar, because the "no. 1" field only spans from 0-127.
BUT with the m1 in particular AND if you only use the 100 programs from program mode, then using only this "no. 1" field is working as well with no need to set the msb/lsb.

and you need to know the correct msb/lsb numbers for that particular synth - like the others told it should be msb:0 and lsb:program number (+1?) for the m1- just try it and see if it makes a difference, and if you have to change the "no.1" number in addition to the lsb to the same value.

yeah that alternative os might have some new and improved functions over the original akai os, and depending of your workflow and style of production you may or may not benefit from that. this is only something you can see and decide for yourself.
there is a free and some paid versions that offer different functions and one for that extra big third party screen from mpcstuff.
many people kind of look down on the original os and think that you need to have one of the alternative os to unleash all the power of the mpc.
to me that is a bit different and there is one reason i stay on the original os and that is the "direct recording" function that is not present in the alternative os - they have "audio tracks" as a substitute, but it is not the same and this is one of the functions which led me to buy the mpc 2500 at the first place.
so, because i only very occasionally do sample and chop all that functionality is not that important for my production style - for me it was most important to have a real tight sequencer for all my midi gear and to have a device with pads suited more towards programming drums than a regular synth keyboard - and it was at a point in time when i banned all computers from the studio, because of their fan noises and so i set up a pure hardware setup at that time.

have fun!

peace, jo

Hey Jo,

just wanted to thank you, you taught me a lot here ! Now I know the basics of midi synth integration to the MPC. I'm going to make it work perfectly.

Just so you know, I am also getting a E-MU Mo-phatt, I found one really cheap and I think its samples sound crazy !!

Will keep you in touch!

Best
Matt

selecta jo wrote:how to use combinations this way? hm, tricky - the manual says that you can access the programs and combinations in sequencer mode, but if i try this it only shows my 100 programs and then the list ends - there is no way to select the combinations.
so i have to find out why it is in the manual when it is not working on the hardware.

actually here i fooled myself because i read the manual wrong - it says the possible setting for the tracks program in (F1-1) "track program" are: OFF; I00-I99 and C00-C99 - and i assumed that C means combination, but it does not!

C stands for card like that cards that go in the slot on top of the m1. those cards can hold another 100 programs and 100 combinations but only those 100 additional programs can be accessed from the sequencer.

that makes way more sense if i think about it, because every combination is made out of up to eight programs and the sequencer mode can only hold eight different progams at once. so combination mode and sequencer mode are like siblings with some different features for their special functions and that is why we can not load a combination in sequencer mode.

so if you find such a m1 program+sequencer memory card and want to use that programs from the "no.1" field on midi tracks of the mpc, THEN you have to use msb/lsb numbers to change the bank and select those sounds.

there is also a second type of cards that go into the slot at the back of the m1 and that cards bring new pcm sounds so you can program real different sounds than with the built in pcm sound palette. there is a whole series been made of this cards, each with some categorized sound material. some of those cards are rare and hard to find now.

if you are interested in adding such a pcm card to your m1, then you can check out all cards that were ever made in the virtual versions of the m1, either in the korg legacy collection or that ipad version, because they include all these cards. this is a good way to determine if there are usable sounds on such a card before you search and buy one for a huge amount of money.

mo-phatt will bring you a lot of urban and hiphop sounds and will be a nice addition to the more "digital" sounds of the m1.
what kind of music do you do? or will your music create a new category for it self?

adding this is as easy as pluging in a midi cable from mpc midi out 2 to the mo-phatt in and connect the audio to your soundsystem. then for all mo-phatt sounds do the same as with the m1 only use midi channels 1B-16B. and read the manual for the mo-phatt on how to set up for multimode or multitimbral use, whatever they call it.

peace, jo