A Professional Question

Bug reports & end-user support for Akai's MPC Software 'controllers' including the new MPC Studio 2, the MPC Touch, MPC Renaissance & original MPC Studio and MPC StudioB lack.
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Re: A Professional Question

By JAH Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:34 am
@labcoats

I understand the article. Its about the feeling you get when you record. You get it with real instruments...with MPCs because the sounds respond immediately when you strike a pad.

What I am saying and have been saying...I have adapted to the way I have to record MIDI on a PC. I talked about quantize because if I turn it off, my notes will be all over the place. With quantize on, as long as the playing is somewhere in the pocket, the notes will be corrected. That is why I can record drums with 26 ms of latency.

I can't explain it to you any simpler than that. I will acknowledge that there are folks that may not be able to or even want to adapt. But I am saying it really isn't that bad. If I can get by with 26 ms of latency using a keyboard as a sound card, I am sure most people would do fine if then can get 12 ms of latency or less.

Re: A Professional Question

By labcoats Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:20 am
Coz wrote:
labcoats wrote:Your like a hardcore Ren protectionist man. Relax. 8)




He won't relax his agenda in the slightest... he was exactly the same (if not worse) when the 5k dropped. :|


hmmm, interesting. Explains a lot actually.

Jah, its not about recording its simply about playing an instrument. They are very different things. But no worries, its fine.
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Re: A Professional Question

By JAH Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:44 am
Coz wrote:He won't relax his agenda in the slightest... he was exactly the same (if not worse) when the 5k dropped. :|


And you are doing exactly what you are doing now...spamming every thread, making no positive contributions...because you are upset that people were buying a new mpc.

Really? Cut it out already.

@labcoats, my best piece of advice to you is to do what Coz says. Avoid this new MPC. Then avoid computer music production in general if you don't want to accept its limitations.
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Re: A Professional Question

By Coz Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:03 pm
labcoats wrote:hmmm, interesting. Explains a lot actually.



I'm just giving you a heads up because you seem like a genuine dude who's asking serious questions (like myself). If you ever have to delve deep into the archives to do some research on older MPS's, the same name crops up time and time again - belittling other members, being generally obnoxious and acting as an Akai apologist.

I can count the members on one hand who could help sway me in the direction of buying one of the new controllers, and they are the people who have great unbiased technical knowledge AND make great music. NYM, Pound, Hellfire, Cyrus, Blue Haze and maybe one or two others spring to mind.

"Jah" doesn't make music.
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Re: A Professional Question

By b.read Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:07 pm
JAH wrote:To sum this up....
1. Lifts limitations



To-may-to, To-mah-to...

If this new mpc is indeed not capable of being used in a standalone scenario, that in itself is a huge limitation- one that will keep me from buyin' one....
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Re: A Professional Question

By Coz Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:19 pm
JAH wrote:Really? Cut it out already.



The forum needs balancing out with people like myself who have the money to invest, but have serious reservations. This place would be like a weird cult if it was filled with people like yourself... :?

As Tutor has already suggested numerous times, hit the foe button if you don't like someone's posts. In the meantime I will continue to post exactly what I want in an open forum. Take it as "hate" or "spamming" if you want, but my contribution is no less relevant than yours. The difference between us is that you've got an agenda to shift more units for your employees, and I just want to find the right tools for the job of making music.

Hit the button... :wink:
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Re: A Professional Question

By DJ Hellfire Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:27 pm
labcoats wrote:Allow me to quote this passage from an article written by Innerclock systems. He explains it much better than I can. Granted he's talking about analog synths but the same applies to hardware MPCs because the response time between hitting a pad and hearing the sound is almost instantaneous. Its so fast no one can can feel the minuscule amount of latency between pad strike and sound. Its long, but read it, you will learn something.
, Ive taken the liberty to highlight points in bold.

http://innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Questions.html

From Inncerclock Systems
I had a friend over the other day – he is a first rate keyboard player – he gigged as a young man using EP-200s and D6 Clavinets. He sold these in the late 80’s like most people and bought midi modules and controllers and later moved into software. I have an old 1976 Roland System 101 analogue keyboard in the studio and he asked if I minded if he had a play. No problem. Four hours later I had to pull the plug so he would go home and let me go to bed. With all his midi gear and softsynths he admitted to feeling mostly uninspired as a player to really play like he used to with same passion as he remembered and yet on this night he could not leave this beat up old monosynth alone.

We discussed the experience at great length the next day and we both concluded that the sole reason behind this renewed enthusiasm and unforced creative expression came from the simple fact that the key-to-note response time is mostly instantaneous in a lot of vintage gear. Arps, Moogs, Rolands, Oberheims – when you press a key the note sounds in microseconds and when your fingers come off the key the note ends just as fast. His natural desire to keep playing had nothing to do with the sounds of the synth or retro nostalgia – he was unaware that he was playing for nearly four hours. This instant keyboard response time is like fingers on guitar strings or hands on a conga skin – feel takes over and expression just happens. He compared the mono-synth response to that of his old D6 Clavinet and anyone who has ever played a real one will know that they almost spit at you when you hit the keys, the response time is that fast. I asked him about Clavinet patches in his midi modules and software emulations. His answer was simple – they sound authentic but the slow response time changes the way you interact with the keys and consequently the expression and feel is much poorer and he finds himself less inspired to actually play.

This is most peoples experience with computer latency and softsynths where response time is never much better than 7ms even on a very good system. I watch people play everyday on these systems and I never see that same level of passion or expression. What I see is playing with no real feel with the knowledge that it will be quantized after the recording anyway. Where is the expression in that? Where is the passion for and connection to an instrument? More disturbing perhaps is that this disappointing experience is broadly accepted as the way things are and should be graciously accepted. And it’s not all about software and computers either. Plenty of modern hardware ‘virtual’ and DSP based instruments suffer from key to note latency also. They sound good but do they begged to be played? Do they keep you awake at night because you can’t leave them alone? The answer is mostly no they do not.


Most/all music taught in schools now is software/controller/PC based. Does this mean we are fostering and indeed encouraging an entire generation that will have no experience of feeling instant key to sound in their playing? What does this mean for feel and expression in playing and composition for the future? If the significance of this experience is lost on those of us that understand how fundamentally different it feels using these vintage instruments with instant response times, what then is the logical conclusion to this trend when all that remains are new generations of electronic musicians who only know software emulations and visit museum displays to look at the heritage behind glass?



I don't really buy it, or feed into it rather. I'm not a pianist, but I know from my own personal experience, if I load one of my VI's, it triggers just a quick from my MPC pads as my JV 1010 does. I don't notice any difference. Also, it doesn't mention the player's DAW setup. And how old is the article? Computers and interfaces are much more capable now than they were several years ago.

My crew does a show every other Thursday night where we showcase local artists. And we also have a live band that plays and can pick up the artists music live if the artist desires. The keyboardist is not running a fantom or korg or yamaha. He runs a little M-audio controller and a MBP with logic and KILLS it and loves it. And he's an INCREDIBLE player. Now this is not ordinary garage band. They actually play for/with established well known multi-platinum recording artists that I will not name drop, and get paid for it.

To add to that, I'm a DJ and when I scratch on My Torq program or my boys Serato, the cuts are just as sharp and instant as real vinyl, and that's at 128 buffer. Just saying, programs are different, computers and peripherals are different, and peoples knowledge of them are different. I think maybe it's a mental thing, or placebo affect if you will, that some people have when they feel the hardware responds noticeably quicker than software?
Last edited by DJ Hellfire on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Professional Question

By MeSoHordey Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:45 pm
Coz wrote:
JAH wrote:Really? Cut it out already.



The forum needs balancing out with people like myself who have the money to invest, but have serious reservations. This place would be like a weird cult if it was filled with people like yourself... :?

As Tutor has already suggested numerous times, hit the foe button if you don't like someone's posts. In the meantime I will continue to post exactly what I want in an open forum. Take it as "hate" or "spamming" if you want, but my contribution is no less relevant than yours. The difference between us is that you've got an agenda to shift more units for your employees, and I just want to find the right tools for the job of making music.

Hit the button... :wink:

Re: A Professional Question

By labcoats Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:05 am
Dj Hellfire:
I don't really buy it, or feed into it rather. I'm not a pianist, but I know from my own personal experience, if I load one of my VI's, it triggers just a quick from my MPC pads as my JV 1010 does. I don't notice any difference. Also, it doesn't mention the player's DAW setup. And how old is the article? Computers and interfaces are much more capable now than they were several years ago.


You dont buy in to the fact that playing an analog/real instrument with a response time of near light speed makes any difference to a performer had he/she been playing an instrument with 3-6ms lag. Try telling that to a world class concert pianist. ior even just a regular drummer. hell, even the average real instrument playing musician would feel the difference. There is evidence out there suggesting world class performers can feel a difference in the micro seconds. Lets agree to disagree on this one though
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Re: A Professional Question

By DJ Hellfire Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:23 am
labcoats wrote:Dj Hellfire:
I don't really buy it, or feed into it rather. I'm not a pianist, but I know from my own personal experience, if I load one of my VI's, it triggers just a quick from my MPC pads as my JV 1010 does. I don't notice any difference. Also, it doesn't mention the player's DAW setup. And how old is the article? Computers and interfaces are much more capable now than they were several years ago.


You dont buy in to the fact that playing an analog/real instrument with a response time of near light speed makes any difference to a performer had he/she been playing an instrument with 3-6ms lag. Try telling that to a world class concert pianist. ior even just a regular drummer. hell, even the average real instrument playing musician would feel the difference. There is evidence out there suggesting world class performers can feel a difference in the micro seconds. Lets agree to disagree on this one though


Exactly! Take a REAL grand piano (not an electronic synth), which has thousands of actual moving parts/hammers when you press the keys, there's no way you can say it will not have a response time similar to that of a VI. So if a world class pianist isn't bothered by the minute delay of a real piano (especially as the parts wear out and need tuning/restoration), there is no way the average human being is going to be impaired by a 3ms VI. Tests and evidence can suggest all they like, but the average producer ain't phased by no mere milliseconds!
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Re: A Professional Question

By JAH Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:56 am
b.read wrote:
JAH wrote:To sum this up....
1. Lifts limitations



To-may-to, To-mah-to...

If this new mpc is indeed not capable of being used in a standalone scenario, that in itself is a huge limitation- one that will keep me from buyin' one....


And that is your right to choose. But...I suspect you are not being completely forthcoming. You said it multiple times and multiple different ways that you will may not buy this new MPC. Why spend a significant part of your day talking about something you don't want? Based upon this, I believe you do want to buy one. You just don't to committ because you are afraid of the backlash you will receive. Our numbers are growing...you will be protected. :P

Re: A Professional Question

By labcoats Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:43 am
Jah Wrote
@labcoats, my best piece of advice to you is to do what Coz says. Avoid this new MPC. Then avoid computer music production in general if you don't want to accept its limitations.


:roll:
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Re: A Professional Question

By JAH Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:00 am
labcoats wrote:Jah Wrote
@labcoats, my best piece of advice to you is to do what Coz says. Avoid this new MPC. Then avoid computer music production in general if you don't want to accept its limitations.


:roll:

That's great advice because...1) You say very little positive things about this new MPC...2)You struggle with computer-based production systems and refuse to adapt to their limitations. You are just asking to have a very frustrating experience.

Re: A Professional Question

By labcoats Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:44 am
Its time you gave that bionic mouth of yours a rest chum. Ive been extremely positive about Ren in many threads. I will not be positive about latency which is an issue with all daws.

You suggest
A I cant get my head around technology
B. Cant work withinits limitations (haha, you even admit there are limitations)
C. There-for I should just give it up.

Fact is I use more technology than you do. I integrate, and TOTALLY successfully marry hardware with my Daw. Instead of rejecting anything I embrace them and make them work for me (try it sometime). Im actually using one of the most cutting edge boxes around. Its so cutting edge , few know about it, or even understand it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6GFlo4_BM

Heres one of my Youtube videos. As you can see Im using a Daw and hardware. The videos is actually quite basic to how a session of mine would look (it was for sync demonstration only). I Could have multiple VSTs running, plugins and so on along with an array of hardware. Most of my hardware you dont see, its at the other side of the room (such as my 4k). The monotribe doesnt even have midi or midi clock. Yet there I am marrying that tribe up with a daw, drum machine, hardware sequencer all in sync.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZxkdVBt08

In this second video I take a Monotribe which has one out-put and multi track its parts on to separate tracks all in real time without ever stopping. It could just as very well be an MPC. Do you understand whats going on here, and the relevance of it?

My next sync video is going to be my MPC 4k in perfect sync with my Daw as I track out parts never missing a beat once...

Do yo still maintain I cant get my head around technology and should basically give it all up?
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Re: A Professional Question

By JAH Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:23 am
You should communicate with people on the internet as if you were standing in the same room with them. That would prevent many e-beefs. There is no reasont to get upset. You are trying to write, mix, and master ( :wink: ) and the limitations of computer-based systems (yes...they have limitations) are preventing you from working the way you want to. I believe my advice is valid as it will ease your frustrations.

Now, because you are unhappy regarding my advice that you asked for...you want to play "who is bigger in the shower". :lol: You don't really want me to go there (as you would not win) and it has nothing to do with this conversation really.

But I will be the bigger man and say...you win. I am sorry. Buy whatever you want. And then complain about your purchase if you choose to do so. You don't want to use computers...thats ok with me. No MPC Ren for you? Then I really hope you find happiness in the amazing set-up you already have or any other product the peaks your interest.

Me personally...I am waiting for my Kronos to me fixed and memory upgraded so I can have 2 GB available for user samples.....and hope Korg finally releases the plugin editor. I plan to use that as a plugin within my MPC Ren that I will purchase as soon as it hit the streets. In fact, I will buy the MPC Studio and I haven't even seen it yet....just over 6 more hours to see it!
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