MPC 3000 Vintage Mode Samples

JAH wrote:What instruments Dr Dre used to compose this song is irrelevant as both MPCs are using the same source.

it is completely relevant as the source material already has 3K sonic imprint on it, again this nulls your test

JAH wrote:Note - This test does not include the sonic characteristics of the AD converters of these MPCs. That would be a completely different test as there is no indication that the MPC Ren vintage mode emulates legacy MPCs on input.

obviously you are wrong again, the source material already has the 3K AD sonic imprint, also what method did you use to sample it in your own 3K? the analog or digital inputs?

anyways just use a neutral sample, everyone will be happy

I assume from what he wrote that he loaded the audio via floppy disk/other medium into the mpc3k.. thus sidestepping the a/d stage.

the 3K doesn't support wav format meaning to digitally transfer files to it you'd need the now scarce & also unsupported wav to snd editors, which i believe aren't mac compatible. the easiest way to bypass the 3K AD would be to use the digital input

The source material has very little to no MPC sonic imprint on it. That bass, keys/synths, and vocals have nothing to do with an MPC. The drums were most likely from an MPC 3000, but ran through the best outboard gear and console money can make. The source being identical is the most important for a test. No genre of music is irrelevant...especially hip-hop.

And yes....I bypassed the AD stage of both MPCs by using their digital inputs.

Once I reveal which MPC produced which sample (differences are negligible based upon current polling)...I have some break beat drums that I will do the same test with.

just so were clear, this "poll" in no way reflects wether the differences are negligible.. just that people may not easily identify the source sampler which isn't an easy task given the source material and especially if you are not extremely familiar with the 3K. looking forward to hear those breakbeats processed though.. please also include a direct software bounce with vintage mode on/off so we can also compare/guess the Ren outs vs software VM. so basically 4 clips: sample dry no VM, sample with soft VM, sample with hard VM, sample from MPC3000

My hypothesis is that the differences are negligible. This goes for pretty much all MPCs in my opinion.

I talked plenty about things I like about MPCs...rarely do I discuss and debate sound. They all sound great.

daftmunk wrote:just so were clear, this "poll" in no way reflects wether the differences are negligible.. just that people may not easily identify the source sampler which isn't an easy task given the source material and especially if you are not extremely familiar with the 3K.

this is very true. all this test is measuring is how well someone can spot a particular machine. there are two options and unless the listener is very versed in BOTH machines, its basically just guessing.

do appreciate the effort, but the methods should be stepped up to be able to make any reasonable conclusion.

JAH wrote:My hypothesis is that the differences are negligible. This goes for pretty much all MPCs in my opinion.
I talked plenty about things I like about MPCs...rarely do I discuss and debate sound. They all sound great.

this test will not confirm nor deny this in any way.
thank you

tapedeck wrote:

JAH wrote:My hypothesis is that the differences are negligible. This goes for pretty much all MPCs in my opinion.
I talked plenty about things I like about MPCs...rarely do I discuss and debate sound. They all sound great.

this test will not confirm nor deny this in any way.
thank you

I already proved this with the MPC 3000 and MPC 2500 in this forum. Everything you guys have been saying has been said before. You go into this thing with your mind set on the MPC 3000 being superior in sound quality. I can do a test exactly as your described...and you will come up with another reason it's not valid.

This test is simple. Play the same sample in two MPCs. And is there a significant difference? Does the emulation sound like the real thing?

Of course everyone is just guessing which MPC is which...mostly based on their perception. I believe the few people that voted picked the sound they prefer sonically. But do these samples sound similar?

JAH wrote:The source material has very little to no MPC sonic imprint on it. That bass, keys/synths, and vocals have nothing to do with an MPC. The drums were most likely from an MPC 3000, but ran through the best outboard gear and console money can make. The source being identical is the most important for a test. No genre of music is irrelevant...especially hip-hop.

And yes....I bypassed the AD stage of both MPCs by using their digital inputs.

Once I reveal which MPC produced which sample (differences are negligible based upon current polling)...I have some break beat drums that I will do the same test with.

I respectfully disagree. That's whats wrong with these type of tests. People use library drums or in this case a sample that already has punch and is already in a hip hop form. You can sample "Still Dre" with practically anything and it mostly likely will sound good and punchy.

Let me hear the sound comparison with drum break from a old record that precedes hip hop. That's what sampling drum machines are used for.

Or it doesn't even have to precede hip hip...something like this.

JAH wrote:Note - This test does not include the sonic characteristics of the AD converters of these MPCs. That would be a completely different test as there is no indication that the MPC Ren vintage mode emulates legacy MPCs on input.

what do you think gives "the mpc3000 sound" in the first place if it isn't sampling through it's sample engine? that is the whole point!

of course the ren doesn't have the actual converters... that's why everyone's been saying that there's no way it can sound like the real thing as it doesn't go through the same process... in all honesty, you are DOWNPLAYING the mpc3000's sound in this supposed test of yours by simply using it's outputs as if that is all there is to the mpc3000 sound.

and just what kind of statement is "there is no indication that the MPC Ren vintage mode emulates legacy MPCs on input" anyway?? you've completely missed the entire point of comparing the actual sound of each unit and are focused more on trying to make the 3000 sound closer to the ren. the mpc3000 is a SAMPLER, not a ROMPLER.

the test you're supposed to be doing consists of sampling the same material into each sampler through it's inputs, and then playing that sample back through it's outputs. and please don't sample something overproduced like Dr Dre again...

JAH wrote:You go into this thing with your mind set on the MPC 3000 being superior in sound quality.

i definitely did not assume that. you cannot assume that about everyone that takes this test. that is why your test is invalid - you are making an assumption that is not remotely true or even demonstrable.

if you want to test 'which do people prefer', then put up the sound clips and say 'which do you prefer'.

JAH wrote:This test is simple. Play the same sample in two MPCs. And is there a significant difference? Does the emulation sound like the real thing?

but this test does not prove 'there is no difference'. all this test is proving is what people THINK each machine sounds like. if half guess one way and half guess the other way, all you are confirming is that when people randomly guess, the distribution will often be 50/50. if the test skews one way, all you are proving is that people in this forum are either good or bad at guessing which one is a 3000. thats it - nothing about how 'negligible' the difference is.

im not attacking you, i said thanks for trying. but it is important to realise that if you use flawed methods, you cannot expect factual results.

if you want to prove there is 'no difference', then make a bunch of samples and have people group them together by machine.
at that point the machine itself becomes irrelevant and you are going solely by sonic characteristics. sure the source samples might have an effect, but if there is a widespread 'mix' of people thinking half the samples from one machine are actually the other, then you start to get a better picture of 'negligible difference'.

even then though, you aren't proving that the emulation or anything is so close to the original that it is perfect - you could also be proving that the original effect of the 3000 'sound' is negligible.

thank you again though.

i agree with you that the sound differences are negligible.

crossings wrote:and just what kind of statement is "there is no indication that the MPC Ren vintage mode emulates legacy MPCs on input" anyway?? you've completely missed the entire point of comparing the actual sound of each unit and are focused more on trying to make the 3000 sound closer to the ren. the mpc3000 is a SAMPLER, not a ROMPLER.

the test you're supposed to be doing consists of sampling the same material into each sampler through it's inputs, and then playing that sample back through it's outputs. and please don't sample something overproduced like Dr Dre again...

that's actually a very valid point, most of the magic imo enters at the AD stage, also depending on what level setting and how hot you hit the converter. only testing the post DA stage is effectively doing it only half way.

another point i'd like to make is that things like envelopes & filters play an important role in a sampler just like on a synth, also layering sounds may reveal the internal headroom and mix bus compression. obviously it would be a major task to test all this and i'm not expecting anyone to do so, but i guess my point is these tests are very difficult to accurately make.

in the end it may not even prove to be all that worthy as the 3000 is basically a clean full dynamic 16-bit sound, but with not huge characteristics although i do not agree all MPC's sound the same, even on same generation series. a much more revealing test would of course be the 60/SP1200 mode, but that's a whole other topic..

Did anyone else notice that the MPC Y example is noticeably shifted to the right and out of phase with respect to X? This was the first thing that jumped out to me and makes me wonder about the QC of this "test" or if something is going on in the chain somewhere. The stereo discrepancy alone makes Y inferior to X by default, to me, regardless of which unit it comes from unless this is a proposed artifact of one of the particular units.

To elaborate, I downloaded the .wav files from Soundcloud and loaded them into a DAW and out with no type of processing or level changes on my end. However, I had to stop listening at that point since the stereo imaging and lack of fidelity was more aurally distracting to me than any potential subtle differences in timbre or tonality that would be due to MPC emulations or outputs. This isn't to be offensive to the OP because at least — all of the questionable agendas of the tester not considered and my personal perceptions aside — the test/comparison is being attempted at all.

I didn't look at the post detailing the particulars of how the samples where recorded, if recorded at all, but I also feel that the source material either didn't originate from vinyl or a lossless source so isn't the best material for critical listening. It actually sounds like a mp3, to me. I say this especially since it itself seems to be distorted at various stages. You can hear the distortion, noticeably where there is vocal sibilance. I'm not sure if the distortion is in the original Dr. Dre song though. While some degradation is expected going through extraneous stages of conversion, these artifacts may have to do with if it's actually a mp3 or even poor gain staging. At any rate, neither example sounded "good" to me, so I couldn't really vote based upon my own preference nor assumption of which unit I believed was which. Thus, I didn't bother to vote.

If you do a second test with better QC and cleaner and higher fidelity source material it may be a more credible test for those who are seriously trying to discern between the validity of Akai's claims regarding the MPC Ren's emulations and actuality. I listened purely out of curiosity though.

To be honest, i cant hear the differance they both sound the same, imo...