Hardware Vintage mode mystery uncovered

Ill-Green wrote:I'm sure the Studio will have vintage mode.

it also may not.. even though it could because enabled technically in software, they might reserve that feature to ren only as an incentive to upgrade.. shady tactic if that turns out true but not at all unseen in software world (just look at "light" versus "complete" versions in most DAWs)

EQing and filtering at any frequency effects all of the frequencies except in the case of linear phase which is not possible in hardware alone.

So in the case of an anti aliasing filter copied from the 3000 to the Ren it would impart the sample phase smearing that was caused in the original 3000 which does change the sound, however slight.

You can think of EQing or filtering on a stretched out rubber band.
When you press down at any point of the rubber band it stretches the entire rubber band but more so at the cutoff frequency.

So even seemingly insignificant lowpass anti-aliasing filters can cause changes in the sound.

Just so you know....

daftmunk wrote:

Ill-Green wrote:I'm sure the Studio will have vintage mode.

it also may not.. even though it could because enabled technically in software, they might reserve that feature to ren only as an incentive to upgrade.. shady tactic if that turns out true but not at all unseen in software world (just look at "light" versus "complete" versions in most DAWs)

It's already been quoted from I think 2 x sources that the studio will have the software vintage modes.

JAH wrote:

m56p87 wrote:

JAH wrote:What does that anti-aliasing...two pole low pass filter without resonance do exactly

Look up "Nyquist frequency". it's basically just a filter put where aliaising will occur on the incoming audio. It made more sense to me when I read about how it works on images...

Cool.

I am interested in hearing the OPs hands-on compairson. I find very little value in reading some specs.

Is this a joke?

I never owned a 3000 but i love the ren sound.It shits on the sound of my 1000! Its punchy,deep and round.The actual output of the Ren does give extra punch so its not just software.U guys are gettin it twisted! i did software export and audio output! Im sticking with the audio output for tracking cause it gives me that extra punch that i want.Lemme say this - I never heard my beats sound this good ever.

optik415 wrote:I never owned a 3000 but i love the ren sound.It shits on the sound of my 1000! Its punchy,deep and round.The actual output of the Ren does give extra punch so its not just software.U guys are gettin it twisted! i did software export and audio output! Im sticking with the audio output for tracking cause it gives me that extra punch that i want.Lemme say this - I never heard my beats sound this good ever.

Would love to hear your a/b export/tracking comparison.... But Im inclined to call bs considering how much your saying it effects the sound... In other words, with what we know about the Ren there really isn't the facts/hardware to back up your statement unless you include the software vintage modes.... But you own the Ren I do not,I just don't see how stock ADC/DACs are gonna color your sound as much as your saying it does without some level of it being in your head. Especially when other people don't seem to see a difference at all.....

optik415 wrote:I love the ren sound.It shits on the sound of my 1000! Its punchy,deep and round..

how did you determine this, by sampling same sounds to both mpc and ren or by comparison of your old mpc material recorded in 16bits 44.1hz versus rens factory presets in 24bit 96hz

round ?

Airyck wrote:So in the case of an anti aliasing filter copied from the 3000 to the Ren it would impart the sample phase smearing that was caused in the original 3000 which does change the sound, however slight.

Technicaly you are right about everything you say. The only thing is its just a butterworth response (on a sallen key circuit). Nothing specific to a mpc3000. Its the most used filter response there is for these kind of tasks. Every soundcard has one after its converters.

But hey I just checked the akai site, and they removed the "analog mpc3000 outs feature" from the feature list. So they probably also found it a bad idea after all to advertise with this "feature"

Funk E-technician wrote:
But hey I just checked the akai site, and they removed the "analog mpc3000 outs feature" from the feature list. So they probably also found it a bad idea after all to advertise with this "feature"

They're the identical 1/4" jacks!! I also went back and watched one of the teaser videos after feeling misled about the pads...'Genuine MPC Pads' didn't quite do it for me. I should say the same about 'Genuine MPC Workflow' but I have faith they'll do some rework on that.

mQueue wrote:They're the identical 1/4" jacks!!

LMAO!

well didn't they also say it has the same transport buttons as the 3000/60?

daftmunk wrote:

Funk E-technician wrote:@JAH

The filter is there in both designs (3000 and ren) to filter out the out of band noise that came with the d to a conversion.

...if the filter is there on both designs then shouldn't that mean as insignificant as it might be that indeed the ren has a similar if not identical design to the 3000?

also what else were you expecting to find at that particular output stage other then that?

finally i'm no circuit expert but wouldn't a lowpass filter actually color sound? it certainly does on my SP-1200 outputs..

don't get me wrong i'm as skeptical as anyone on akai's claim on this subject but i'm not entirely convinced this "discovery" proves anything at this point...

We received some info from a 'reported tech expert' that nobody knows. I'm ok with that. But logically I am skeptical of his claims until we have concrete proof. We haven't received anything like that.

A direct comparison of the MPC 3000 and Ren is a must; not just on paper. Anything short of that is not reliable information.

Fallacious reasoning keeps us from knowing the truth, and the inability to think critically makes us vulnerable to manipulation by those skilled in the art of rhetoric.

JAH wrote:You clearly implied the circuitry doesn't add any coloration to the sound. Can you prove this?

Like the OP said, this "circuitry" is just an anti-aliasing filter outside of the audio region. Just learn about what anti-aliasing filters are and how they work:

Airyck wrote:EQing and filtering at any frequency effects all of the frequencies except in the case of linear phase which is not possible in hardware alone.

So in the case of an anti aliasing filter copied from the 3000 to the Ren it would impart the sample phase smearing that was caused in the original 3000 which does change the sound, however slight.

You can think of EQing or filtering on a stretched out rubber band.
When you press down at any point of the rubber band it stretches the entire rubber band but more so at the cutoff frequency.

So even seemingly insignificant lowpass anti-aliasing filters can cause changes in the sound.

While that sounds nice in theory and would certainly help to reduce buyer's remorse for Ren owners if it was really the case, the reality is that listening tests will not show any audible difference from what kind of anti-aliasing filter is used.

For example, this test shows that the impulse response "smearing" has no audible effect: "If energy smear is a real and significant effect, then these seven very different filters should have made obviously different imprints on the sound quality of the test tracks. But the listening results, described in the sidebar, indicate that the sonic disparities between the filtered tracks and the 24/96 originals were very difficult to pin down."
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/10 ... index.html

As someone who tried to disprove this, I can say with near confidence Vintage Mode is in fact 100% software.

Here is the Renaissance running with only the Rear Digital Board connected (No AD/DA) Vintage Mode is working, even coming through on my factory speakers. SPDIF works too ! )

I thought the ribbon cable connecting the Front Panel to the Rear Digital Board was carrying audio and the front panel was affecting it, but apparently this cable carries MIDI ?? and other data.