How comparable is the latency of ren vs hardware mpc's?

Lampdog wrote:2-5ms.

Anything above 5ms is noticeable... 10ms starts to become unworkable.

JAH wrote:Actually...the real question is....how much latency is acceptable for some hardware MPC users to embrace the Ren? Akai's goal was to get it under 5ms...Dan said he acheived under 3ms on a Mac.

How other drivers fare is not relevant as you can choose to use any interface you like. The Ren only has 4 audio outs. I will certainly use my own audio interface whose I/O capabilities far exceed the Ren's.

If you feel the Ren's price tag isn't worth it, get yourself a Studio and spend the $700 you saved on an RME or Apogee 2/4 channel interface.

I agree with Jah the drivers are not relevant, in fact this entire thread is not relevant. Are we really sitting here taking about latency... seriously. Besides Jah, who can sit me down in their studio and show me the latency on a REN. Thanks.

Title: "How Comparable is the latency of..."- they can't compare, their instance of latency DOES NOT EXIST!

3m on the Mac, I'd believe it! Still that mac could be a Mac Pro with 8 quad Cores. what is my little duel core iMac to do. How about I wait, buy a Ren/Studio and see if I have an issue before worrying about that. Better yet, wait until its release and look for the first hater to post findings on this site. Ah but then that guy may be running a PC with Virus Scans on it, back to plan A, no Plan C, huh huh ahh....DO YOU SEE WHERE IM GOING WITH THIS, CAN I STOP NOW.

JAH wrote:

jpeg wrote:

this is what i get with maschine if i use two or more vsts, but thats cos maschine is not multi core, but i would not expect drops outs and crackles to be an issue until multiple vsts come into play.

but most peeps just want to see ren fail because it is not standalone

What are the two VSTs, sound card (buffer settings, sample rate, etc), and specs of the PC/Mac you are using when you have these issues?

basically i can only use one vst per project any unless the vsts are very light cpu footprints in which case i can squeeze 2 or 3.

but my computer is a shit amd athalon x2 4000 series

jpeg wrote:

basically i can only use one vst per project any unless the vsts are very light cpu footprints in which case i can squeeze 2 or 3.

but my computer is a **** amd athalon x2 4000 series

Well you identified the problem/solution right there....your computer.

NI forum started with threads like these over 3 years ago. The eventually, forum members became 'informed' and installed Maschine on decent computers. Now you nrarely see these types of threads over at the NI Forum.

Yep.Strangely enuff(mpc old tech)you need powerful comps to get the same performance as stand alone.And even then.........lol

dryad-66 wrote:Yep.Strangely enuff(mpc old tech)you need powerful comps to get the same performance as stand alone.And even then.........lol

No you don't. You need a powerful computer to use the MPC Ren like a DAW, meaning plugins and shit. If you use the Ren the same exact way an old MPC is capable of, you likely only need an Pentium 4 or so. And a Pentium 4 is way more powerful than an MPC's cpu.

So we are talking sample latency then?? not MIDI latency? Inherent latency will add up sample wise with interface, software ad DAC. So you know the numbers, as to stability and actual quality only using it will tell us as we should all know. 2-5ms seems the go here as an acceptable goal then. But foe some one coming from a hardware set up my main concern is MIDI latency and clock jitter. So for that give me round 0.75ms and I will be happy to consider it. Because, correct me if I am wrong, it has MIDI out so you can sequence hardware from the akai software of course right???

bliprock wrote:So we are talking sample latency then?? not MIDI latency? Inherent latency will add up sample wise with interface, software ad DAC. So you know the numbers, as to stability and actual quality only using it will tell us as we should all know. 2-5ms seems the go here as an acceptable goal then. But foe some one coming from a hardware set up my main concern is MIDI latency and clock jitter. So for that give me round 0.75ms and I will be happy to consider it. Because, correct me if I am wrong, it has MIDI out so you can sequence hardware from the akai software of course right???

Do you use a DAW to record MIDI whether it is internal VST instruments or external sound modules?

I use my music production centre to sequence MIDI. everything I do is hardware based and do not use a DAW, computer is used for file management and backing up. . Akai could tempt me to consider using a computer if the software was good enough - stable, capable, and usefu, and tight timing. 'if' that is! But that is by the by. I actually got a MPC as there are too few QY700s around !! So no DAW means that my older iMac would need throwing out, and replacing and a sound interface for multitracking I/O. So its added cost that would depreciate at an alarming rate, and also be limited to a certain life span unless there is support that continues well into the future. So to me it does not seem that feature rich, or future proof for that outlay.
I use external compressors and FX hardware so would have a few VSTs or what ever just as par for the course, and from reading about it it seems that I would need upgrade to consider same type of workflow to what I do now with out a DAW. This has nothing to do with that MIDI latency though and find that the added USB traffic can interfere with clocks but depends on whole range of things as well of course, so it is just conjecture till its measured in my lab. Still specs would be nice to make an informed purchase. you know instead of hype.
So software controller and lightweight DAW does not really tempt me that much considering the alternatives. Even the alternatives do not tempt me from hardware. My studio is future proof with hardware, DAWS and computers get thrown out every 2-3 years nowadays.
Are you surprised I can make music with out a computer Jah? a lot of kids are nowadays.
So everything I do is hardware from sampling, to arranging, sequencing and recording. My music only goes near a computer when I take it of my hardrive recorder unit and make it a MP3 for your listening pleasure. so its live and unedited and sometimes I do consider DAWs, but makes me work harder at a kick ass live sound instead, and to me, that is better. the mastering stage is where a DAW works for me, or actually just cleaning up samples beforehand, and then its just to use few plugins for noise reduction ect. See so no DAW really needed but am considering one for above tasks.

So say the this track I recorded, I sampled of TV, drum machines, ect, then made synth patches on hardware, made my external FX and routing, set gain structure for compressors and arranged the MIDI from playing and programming. REcorded it on my 4 track. Then hey presto a track - I say this, as this is my workflow and I see it can be moved to something like the Ren pretty easily, that and logic ect but if the MIDI clock aint as tight then I am shooting myself in the foot, its that simple. Again its about being informed as a consumer so that is why I am lurking the threads about the Ren/studio/fly.
o thanks dogfather - yeah about MIDI I/O i thought so, just could not be arsed to look, sorry. I was pretty sure.
So most software has sample latency compensation anyways and if Akai do not put it in they will have to eventually as the users will go nuts. And as it will be acceptable norm it will be ok I reckon latency time wise. This does not address MIDI problems though and that is my major consideration with this unit. Cos you know, I do not use a DAW - but am considering something for the tasks I mentioned. I consider everything and am not averse to DAWs, just do not use them.

No I am not suprised you don't use a computer. Based on your earlier comments I assumed as much just wanted to confirm. Using the Ren is not too different than using anyother software workstation. The difference is that is maintains an MPC workflow as it has a controller that is deeply integrated with the software....like a hardware MPCs control surface is deeply integrated with its operating system.

For a decade plus, keyboardist have been using software instruments and DAWs to record their performances. I'm not sure why a software MPC/controller would be any different.

^ cause god forbid that answer has something to do with latency or the ability to sequence hardware... so... resorting back to the standard advertisement shtick it is..

When there are musicians and engineers that use Pro Tools, Nuendo, Logic, Digital Performer, Live, etc everyday to record commercially released music....that means they have found the 'holy grail' to defeating latency. They operate beyond perceived issues being discussed here and obviously have no issues sequencing hardware with these DAWs.

There are forum members well educated/knowledgable on DAWs...some even spoke in this thread. Take notes and learn something is my best advice.

JAH wrote:When there are musicians and engineers that use Pro Tools, Nuendo, Logic, Digital Performer, Live, etc everyday to record commercially released music....that means they have found the 'holy grail' to defeating latency.

you are comparing apples to oranges again son

there´s no holy grail boy. just use dsp cards (pro tools hd) or your interface´s direct monitoring feature.

i guess you don´t make any music, because if you´d do you´d know that tracking and beat making/sequencing are two different things!