The reason it's not standalone! Technically speaking.

Everyone is talking about the fact that it's not standalone or that it should be standalone. But no one is really discussing why it's not standalone, technically speaking. I posted this in another thread, but figured I'd post it here to get some discussion going. Not discuss how you do or don't like controllers. But to discuss ways on how it could have physically/technically been able to go standalone given the features it currently offers.


STANDALONE:
Sounds good on paper, but it's easier said than done. I believe the VST functionality is the main/only thing holding it back from being that "hybrid" you all want. In order to be able to freeze VST's, it would take A LOT of ram, for one, to be able to play the files back, which hardware MPC's never had. Most likely you'd be running the VST's in at least 24-Bit, plus I run mine at 48K, which taxes the ram even more. If you have multiple large VST VI parts and multiple sequences/variations, you'd need so much RAM that you might as well have a computer. The MPC would need to have at least close to 1GB of RAM to achieve this. And given Akai's previous RAM prices, $200 for 128MB, that could be expensive, unless they fully support 3rd party RAM where you don't have to buy twice the amount just get the max the MPC can handle.

And what about your VST effects? You can't freeze those. So you'd have nice plugin effects while connected to the computer, but none during a live gig without your computer? Even if it had audio tracks and you were able to bounce, say, some eq/compressed drums to an audio track, then you couldn't do mutes on your drums because instead of one shots, your patterns would now be huge 2-4-8 bar audio file chunks. And you couldn't play your patterns live, unless you went back and rechopped everything. This is why it is not and will never be standalone.

There's no efficient way to merge VST capability with non-VST capability. Plain and simple. The Beat Thang is able to achieve this only because it only uses built-in effects, and has no VST hosting capability. The only proper way to do it right would be to make the MPC hardware able to actually run/host VST's internally. And some of these VI's are MAD GIGs worth of sound libraries. Just doesn't seem cost effective to do this efficiently. Again, like I said, you'd be looking at something more like a $5000 Meko!

The only way I see it working without going the internal VST route is if they 1) Introduced audio tracks so you can freeze VST VI's and bounce tracks with VST effects to audio. 2) Make the MPC able to playback audio from the internal hard drive like a DAW, and have the pads able to mute the tracks as they playback the same as it does one shots store in RAM. Probably will never happen! Might as well just use a computer!

Thoughts?

it's not standalone..... because it's a controller. Yes your computer can run vst pluggins... and if this mpc software came out without being able to host vst pluggins it would be garbage.

large audio files at high bitrate and frequency... yeah akai should make a product that lets you use 24 and 32 bit wave.... they are a music gear company and every other music gear company who makes software allows you to have higher than 16bit... this is not a feature in 2012, but rather a pre-requisite. Every mpc since the 4000 should have had 24 bit... who cares if it eats up ram.. it's my choice if I want to load up an entire song or one single gong sample into ram.



the bottom line is, if the software works fine... they iron out the bugs and glitches (which we know all software has at early stages) BEFORE releasing the product.... than great!

I personally dont see this as being worth more than pretty much all other music software out there.... and I dont see the price tag comparisons between this and other mpc models because they aren't the same product .. this is not a machine, it is a controller only just like an mpd, but who knows if we can use the controller standalone for midi hardware (not plugged into the computer) like you can with some of the mpd series.

Good points.

I've been kinda wanting a hardware MPC for a while after parting with an MPC2000XL around three years back. It wasn't anything other than the 'away from the computer screen' standalone that made me miss it.

Sometimes I'll see a good used deal on a 1000 or 2500 but you know what? I'd probably still make so many beats in Logic and Geist that I'd seldom use it. And If I made a good beat it would just end up being tracked out to Logic anyway, so maybe I wouldn't bother?

So a controller+software 'MPC' is certainly hugely cool if the software does't suck and it feels like our favourite old hardware but better.

But... yesterday I scored a used humble MPD32 and that's instantly put a lot of the 'hands on' feel of an MPC into Geist. I spent £169 on the combo and it does everything a beatmaker/MPC user could ask for.

I guess my beef with the Ren is that it's pricey and the s/w is as yet an unknown. Software beatmaking tools and controllers are already good and quite cheap. If it was standalone it would have a unique selling point: 'A standalone MPC that you can plug into software for even more power, best of both worlds, etc'.

mr_debauch wrote:it's not standalone..... because it's a controller. Yes your computer can run vst pluggins... and if this mpc software came out without being able to host vst pluggins it would be garbage.

large audio files at high bitrate and frequency... yeah akai should make a product that lets you use 24 and 32 bit wave.... they are a music gear company and every other music gear company who makes software allows you to have higher than 16bit... this is not a feature in 2012, but rather a pre-requisite. Every mpc since the 4000 should have had 24 bit... who cares if it eats up ram.. it's my choice if I want to load up an entire song or one single gong sample into ram.

the bottom line is, if the software works fine... they iron out the bugs and glitches (which we know all software has at early stages) BEFORE releasing the product.... than great!

I personally dont see this as being worth more than pretty much all other music software out there.... and I dont see the price tag comparisons between this and other mpc models because they aren't the same product .. this is not a machine, it is a controller only just like an mpd, but who knows if we can use the controller standalone for midi hardware (not plugged into the computer) like you can with some of the mpd series.

groovemonger wrote:I guess my beef with the Ren is that it's pricey and the s/w is as yet an unknown. Software beatmaking tools and controllers are already good and quite cheap. If it was standalone it would have a unique selling point: 'A standalone MPC that you can plug into software for even more power, best of both worlds, etc'.

I get you guys! But the point of this topic isn't to discuss 'how it would be so much better if it were standalone' or the fact that it's just a controller. The point is to discuss the technical limitations as to why they didn't make it standalone, or rather why it can't be standalone.

Let me put it another way. Technically, how would you suggest they implement a unit that can use VST's connected to a computer and still have your beats sound the exact same, sonically and level wise, when not connected and has no access to those VST's? Would you have it so those VST's you may have used are just simply disabled/inactive in standalone mode, making your beat not sound the same until you plugged back in? Or would you come up with another cost effective way to make it work? If so, how? Or would you not care about cost effectiveness and just go all out in order to make it work, even it the unit ended up costing several thousand dollars?

mr_debauch wrote:large audio files at high bitrate and frequency... yeah akai should make a product that lets you use 24 and 32 bit wave.... they are a music gear company and every other music gear company who makes software allows you to have higher than 16bit... this is not a feature in 2012, but rather a pre-requisite. Every mpc since the 4000 should have had 24 bit... who cares if it eats up ram.. it's my choice if I want to load up an entire song or one single gong sample into ram.

That wasn't the point I was making with that. Here's my point. And I'm being really conservative with the track count, as I usually have 10-17 different tracks in my beats, mostly stereo.

Scenario (MPC Ren is able to run standalone and has audio tracks capability):
[*] Say my beat session is 24-bit, 48K.
[*] On my sample track I have a Waves EQ and a Ping Pong Delay (Stereo).
[*] On my snare track I have a Reverb, Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Stereo).
[*] On my Kick track I have another Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Mono).
[*] On my hat track I have an EQ (Mono).
[*] My bass line is made from an instance of Trilogy VST (Mono).
[*] I also have a fill in melody I played from my Massive VST (Stereo).

I have 3 sequences, an intro, a main, and a hook, all with different patterns for the sample, drums, bass, and melodies and they are all 8 bars each.

So that's 6 different instruments with 3 different variations each, all with VST's on them. So that's 18 different parts I have to freeze/bounce in order for my beat to sound the same in standalone mode. At 95 BPM, that's 0:20 worth of audio for each of the 18 parts, and you double that for the stereo tracks. So 9 audio files @ 0:40 and 9 audio files @ 0:20. So that's 9 minutes worth of 24-bit 48K audio that needs to be played back in ram.

So now I'm in standalone mode, all my tracks are frozen, cool. Only now, since all my performances are now made of 8 bar chunks of 24-bit 48K audio, I can't play the beat live. My only option to be able to play the beat live and still have that same sound would be to go in and rechop everything into individual sample hits to be manipulated live.

And even if I don't want to play live and just want to work on my beat away from home, I can only add to it. I can't change anything that was already done since the audio is all in chunks. If I rechop and edit anything, it's not going to reflect the same way when I get back into the studio and connect to what I had originally done as the original beat sounded. Totally kills the vibe IMO.

Only way to keep it convenient would be to avoid using VST's altogether. But then what fun would that be?!

I just want an instrument not a computer simulated controller. Thats my only gripe with the Ren. I'm sure it can be the most powerful sampler, but it feels like getting a loan through a middle-man when I can go straight to the bank myself.

Ill-Green wrote:I just want an instrument not a computer simulated controller. Thats my only gripe with the Ren. I'm sure it can be the most powerful sampler, but it feels like getting a loan through a middle-man when I can go straight to the bank myself.

So if you were the creator, how would you have made the standalone function work, given the presence of VST's in non-standalone mode?

what about this concept?

http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php/en/ ... v-machines

to minimize the RAM usage it might help to support lossless audio compression (on computer AND standlone) just in case you really need audiotracks. otherwise the vsts are played directly. You dont need (freezed) audiotracks.

peace

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Ill-Green wrote:I just want an instrument not a computer simulated controller. Thats my only gripe with the Ren. I'm sure it can be the most powerful sampler, but it feels like getting a loan through a middle-man when I can go straight to the bank myself.

So if you were the creator, how would you have made the standalone function work, given the presence of VST's in non-standalone mode?

The SP-606 is a good example of how stand-alone and computer can intergrate. Its got three modes. 1- Internal, which is true standalone. 2- External, which turns it into a controller and 3- Both, which can function as stand-alone and controller at the same time. With Both, you can play it standalone and sample stuff and then work it inside the software to really tweak stuff. I know people that access drum racks in Ableton with the 606 and lacing VST effects on them then thrown it into the 606 to be sampled and played when not connected to a CPU (got tired of saying standalone). There's alot that could be done and the technology is there, SP-606 came out in 2005 but the demand for hybrid wasn't there so it faded as fast as it came.

Ill-Green wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Ill-Green wrote:I just want an instrument not a computer simulated controller. Thats my only gripe with the Ren. I'm sure it can be the most powerful sampler, but it feels like getting a loan through a middle-man when I can go straight to the bank myself.

So if you were the creator, how would you have made the standalone function work, given the presence of VST's in non-standalone mode?

The SP-606 is a good example of how stand-alone and computer can intergrate. Its got three modes. 1- Internal, which is true standalone. 2- External, which turns it into a controller and 3- Both, which can function as stand-alone and controller at the same time. With Both, you can play it standalone and sample stuff and then work it inside the software to really tweak stuff. I know people that access drum racks in Ableton with the 606 and lacing VST effects on them then thrown it into the 606 to be sampled and played when not connected to a CPU (got tired of saying standalone). There's alot that could be done and the technology is there, SP-606 came out in 2005 but the demand for hybrid wasn't there so it faded as fast as it came.

So you tweak the vst effect in ableton at the stu. Then what do you do when playing the beat in a live situation where you don't have access to those VST effects that you created in the lab?

Also, how does that work with sequencing vst virtual instruments and being able to detach from the computer?

DJ Hellfire wrote:
So you tweak the vst effect in ableton at the stu. Then what do you do when playing the beat in a live situation where you don't have access to those VST effects that you created in the lab?

Also, how does that work with sequencing vst virtual instruments and being able to detach from the computer?

You can sample your work with the VSTs on, into the box. Then play with it later, of course through that, you won't control the VST because now its a sample, but lets pretend that you got the perfect result and was satisfied. Also, if you like to tweak live, then a laptop would be sufficient.

For the second, its all a push of a button. When both INT and EXT are on, you get both worlds, standalone and controller. When I'm done using the computer, I just put it in INT mode and I can work within the box and the computer is shutted out. In the box, I can't access any VST, so I switch on EXT mode for that.

Akai could've made an MPC as just a hardware sampler/sequencer then put all that DAW power into the software so its less juice for the CPU, but they putted it all on the software. To make a hybrid you have to make both with their own job. Hardware for sampling and sound and software for VSTs and DAW.

DJ Hellfire wrote:
So if you were the creator, how would you have made the standalone function work, given the presence of VST's in non-standalone mode?

nah I get you, and I agree... I am not complaining really... but what I was saying is... it is what it is. It aint standalone because it wasn't designed to be.

Oh, but if they did want to include VST pluggins in a hardware machine the technology has been available for years now and would likely not cost nearly as much to produce these days with some budget in the programming department (which they need to do in order to release a hardware mpc anyways)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsKJEJAYIYU

not sure how great it would be, but im just saying for argument sake that it would be possible.

mr_debauch wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:
So if you were the creator, how would you have made the standalone function work, given the presence of VST's in non-standalone mode?

nah I get you, and I agree... I am not complaining really... but what I was saying is... it is what it is. It aint standalone because it wasn't designed to be.

Oh, but if they did want to include VST pluggins in a hardware machine the technology has been available for years now and would likely not cost nearly as much to produce these days with some budget in the programming department (which they need to do in order to release a hardware mpc anyways)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsKJEJAYIYU

not sure how great it would be, but im just saying for argument sake that it would be possible.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I know it can definitely be done, but at what cost?!

^ your guess is as good as mine, but let's assume we'd have to pay out the a$$..

I think it would have been cool, but i'll be honest here... I am not looking at the ren seriously at this point because I dont see justification for dropping that much on what that offers me.. yes we get classic mpc workflow, but the thing is.. I dont mind other workflows. I have classic mpc workflow on classic mpcs... I have new power on new software. I dont mind using a mouse, I dont need another interface (I just gave away an m-audio)

.. BUT, you and I both are mpc fans, we may not sleep with ours like someone I wont mention... but still, when we see a new product with MPC written on it, we are all about finding out more. Like I said, I wont be likely to get one but you know I am watching out for the product.

but to back your point... where is the power coming from in our studios for the most part? Our computers.. you stated why above quite nicely... it only makes sense for akai to make a piece of gear to harness that power. The only reason why anyone even wonders why this ren is not standalone is because of the word MPC in the name.

Ill-Green wrote:You can sample your work with the VSTs on, into the box. Then play with it later, of course through that, you won't control the VST because now its a sample, but lets pretend that you got the perfect result and was satisfied. Also, if you like to tweak live, then a laptop would be sufficient.

For the second, its all a push of a button. When both INT and EXT are on, you get both worlds, standalone and controller. When I'm done using the computer, I just put it in INT mode and I can work within the box and the computer is shutted out. In the box, I can't access any VST, so I switch on EXT mode for that.

That sounds like what I described earlier in the thread. Seems like a hassle! It's also something you can do with any current modern MPC.

DJ Hellfire wrote:Scenario (MPC Ren is able to run standalone and has audio tracks capability):
[*] Say my beat session is 24-bit, 48K.
[*] On my sample track I have a Waves EQ and a Ping Pong Delay (Stereo).
[*] On my snare track I have a Reverb, Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Stereo).
[*] On my Kick track I have another Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Mono).
[*] On my hat track I have an EQ (Mono).
[*] My bass line is made from an instance of Trilogy VST (Mono).
[*] I also have a fill in melody I played from my Massive VST (Stereo).

I have 3 sequences, an intro, a main, and a hook, all with different patterns for the sample, drums, bass, and melodies and they are all 8 bars each.

So that's 6 different instruments with 3 different variations each, all with VST's on them. So that's 18 different parts I have to freeze/bounce in order for my beat to sound the same in standalone mode. At 95 BPM, that's 0:20 worth of audio for each of the 18 parts, and you double that for the stereo tracks. So 9 audio files @ 0:40 and 9 audio files @ 0:20. So that's 9 minutes worth of 24-bit 48K audio that needs to be played back in ram.

So now I'm in standalone mode, all my tracks are frozen, cool. Only now, since all my performances are now made of 8 bar chunks of 24-bit 48K audio, I can't play the beat live. My only option to be able to play the beat live and still have that same sound would be to go in and rechop everything into individual sample hits to be manipulated live.

And even if I don't want to play live and just want to work on my beat away from home, I can only add to it. I can't change anything that was already done since the audio is all in chunks. If I rechop and edit anything, it's not going to reflect the same way when I get back into the studio and connect to what I had originally done as the original beat sounded. Totally kills the vibe IMO.

Only way to keep it convenient would be to avoid using VST's altogether. But then what fun would that be?!

Ill-Green wrote:Akai could've made an MPC as just a hardware sampler/sequencer then put all that DAW power into the software so its less juice for the CPU, but they putted it all on the software. To make a hybrid you have to make both with their own job. Hardware for sampling and sound and software for VSTs and DAW.

In order to do it right in 2012, they have to make it better than an SP606 from 2005. It would have to be fully functional in both standalone and software modes, which I can't see as being affordable for many current MPC customers.