Non-Destructive Chop needs new/better implementation!

I posted this in another thread, but I think this is a pretty major flaw in the software design for people that chop large samples. So having this in it's own thread should get more attention from Akai (I hope).

If you notice in the screenshot here, I have the ORIGINAL sample at the top of the list and below it is all the chops of something I chopped Non-Destructively by turning Crop off in the slice conversion screen of the sample editor. If you notice, ALL of the chops' files sizes are the exact same as the original sample. And when I playback the chops in VLC player, they all are the entire original sample. So what the MPC seems to be doing is just making a bunch of copies of the original sample and just recalling different locations for each chop. This one beat (the one I posted the video of when I got the Ren) has only 24 1/4-note slices of the sample and about 16 drum sounds, yet, the beat session is over 140MB.

Now, last week in Maschine, I did a beat where I chopped a 1:38 piece of a song (17MB) into 104 1/4-note pieces and has a bunch of drums, yet, that entire session is only 38MB. Had I done this same beat in MPC, this beat would likely be almost 2GB due to 104 copies of the original sample, plus the original, plus the drums. So...






Now, if there is some setting I missed, please point it out if you know. Otherwise, it seems the only way to avoid this is to just keep crop turned on and chop destructively like the old chop shop!

DJ Hellfire wrote:Otherwise, it seems the only way to avoid this is to just keep crop turned on and chop destructively like the old chop shop!

IMAKEMADBEATS wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Otherwise, it seems the only way to avoid this is to just keep crop turned on and chop destructively like the old chop shop!

This is by far the biggest flaw ive seen, this will eat up peoples hard drives in no time...

ouch
guess that's standing behind the philosophy of using the computer resources instead of 'being limited' to the resources a hardware device provided.

seriously though - this defeats the entire purpose of ram.

other samplers did this properly in 1988, but akai couldn't get it right with 24 years of sampler innovation (from other companies) to learn from?

this is not going to be a easy update.

tapedeck wrote::shock: ouch
guess that's standing behind the philosophy of using the computer resources instead of 'being limited' to the resources a hardware device provided.

tapedeck wrote::shock: ouch
guess that's standing behind the philosophy of using the computer resources instead of 'being limited' to the resources a hardware device provided.

Not really since Maschine does have truly non-destructive chopping and doesn't have this problem at all. Akai just didn't get the basics right (like copying sequences duplicating plugins and eating up CPU), being noobs to software development.

I would like to see better implementation of Non-destructive Chop better known as 'Link Slices' feature. Slice Start points can't overlap in its current implementation.

While the MPC Ren's implementation creates duplicate samples, you can reduce the size of your chops by checking 'Crop' when converting the slices to a new program.

For the record, the developers coding the Ren are not noobs to software development. Anymore than Maschine coders are noobs....as they have not fully implemented MIDI after 3+ years of development nor have come up with a common sense method to actually mix your sounds/project.

JAH wrote:For the record, the developers coding the Ren are not noobs to software development. Anymore than Maschine coders are noobs....as they have not fully implemented MIDI after 3+ years of development nor have come up with a common sense method to actually mix your sounds/project.

lol The MIDI implementation in Maschine was by choice, not because they didn't know how.

"We are currently reworking the concept of how notes in Maschine translate to plug-ins and MIDI, and the import of MIDI note data will come as a part of that development effort. Since this is part of a larger change, we decided to postpone it beyond version 1.8." http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... ost1045919

JAH wrote:I would like to see better implementation of Non-destructive Chop better known as 'Link Slices' feature. Slice Start points can't overlap in its current implementation.

Are you talking about Maschine? You can overlap slices in Maschine. You just have to apply your chops first, then you can go back into the sample editor and overlap any slices you want. At least MPC has this feature as well.

emptysea wrote:

JAH wrote:For the record, the developers coding the Ren are not noobs to software development. Anymore than Maschine coders are noobs....as they have not fully implemented MIDI after 3+ years of development nor have come up with a common sense method to actually mix your sounds/project.

lol The MIDI implementation in Maschine was by choice, not because they didn't know how.

"We are currently reworking the concept of how notes in Maschine translate to plug-ins and MIDI, and the import of MIDI note data will come as a part of that development effort. Since this is part of a larger change, we decided to postpone it beyond version 1.8." http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... ost1045919

Spin it any way you want to. MIDI implementation throughout Maschine is probably the worst I have seen in any modern product that calls itself a sequencer. 3+ years to get MIDI right?

And I have seen NI promises before. To paraphrase them...they insisted they were working on time stretching and pitch shifting years ago. They said they were taking their time and will implement real time versions. This never happened and they just released offline versions...which MPCs have had since the 90s.

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:I would like to see better implementation of Non-destructive Chop better known as 'Link Slices' feature. Slice Start points can't overlap in its current implementation.

Are you talking about Maschine? You can overlap slices in Maschine. You just have to apply your chops first, then you can go back into the sample editor and overlap any slices you want. At least MPC has this feature as well.

No. I am talking about the Ren not Maschine here.

1 copy /slice. This a waste of resources and actually it's not far from the ancient method of Copy>Truncate to get slices.

The MPC5000 didn't have Nondestructive Chopping. With so much of the 5000 being included with the Ren it's not really surprising that the sample engine has the same limitations even if you port it to a stronger platform. What's seen in the Ren seems to be the best way to emulate Nondestructive chopping without completely overhauling the sample engine.

wow.. with the current implementation, it totally defeats the point of being "non-destructive" in the first place... wtf were they thinking?

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:I would like to see better implementation of Non-destructive Chop better known as 'Link Slices' feature. Slice Start points can't overlap in its current implementation.

Are you talking about Maschine? You can overlap slices in Maschine. You just have to apply your chops first, then you can go back into the sample editor and overlap any slices you want. At least MPC has this feature as well.

No. I am talking about the Ren not Maschine here.

The Ren DOES have this feature though! Unless I'm miss understanding what you're talking about. With "Link Slices" turned OFF, you can overlap slices in the Ren!

MPC 4k had sample start offset parameter. It just had too smaller range to be used for this.

I always thought that parameter had loads of scope for interesting things i.e.

Non destructive chopping.

Granular synthesis with loop lock enabled etc.

Might be easier for Akai to implement this one parameter than change their standard methodology.

G

JAH wrote:

emptysea wrote:

JAH wrote:For the record, the developers coding the Ren are not noobs to software development. Anymore than Maschine coders are noobs....as they have not fully implemented MIDI after 3+ years of development nor have come up with a common sense method to actually mix your sounds/project.

lol The MIDI implementation in Maschine was by choice, not because they didn't know how.

"We are currently reworking the concept of how notes in Maschine translate to plug-ins and MIDI, and the import of MIDI note data will come as a part of that development effort. Since this is part of a larger change, we decided to postpone it beyond version 1.8." http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... ost1045919

Spin it any way you want to. MIDI implementation throughout Maschine is probably the worst I have seen in any modern product that calls itself a sequencer. 3+ years to get MIDI right?

And I have seen NI promises before. To paraphrase them...they insisted they were working on time stretching and pitch shifting years ago. They said they were taking their time and will implement real time versions. This never happened and they just released offline versions...which MPCs have had since the 90s.

lol You're the one trying to spin things around here but that's no surprise to anyone. The fact that Maschine has offline timestretch/pitchshift now does not in anyway contradict what NI revealed about their development roadmap: "Timestretching is on our development roadmap, as a real-time feature, not just an offline process in the sample editor. Regarding the "when" - when it's ready." http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... post697757

So what we got for Maschine 1.8 is the "offline process in the sample editor" they mentioned back then and we know NI is still going to implement realtime timestretch for Maschine and they'll make sure to take the time to do it right.