Track Volumes in TRK MIX

I posted in another thread my issue with track volumes thinking I might have missed something but I now pretty sure this is a bug. Not sure if it is 1.8.0 / 1.8.1 bug.or older. I am aware of the differences between TRK MIX & PROG MIX so this is not user error.

Here is what I am experiencing:
No volume level control from TRK MIX on certain programs. It seems to be a plugin issue more so then drum track problem.

I have loaded up a plugin and select a flute on track 1. I record my chords and go ti TRK MIX to adjust the volume and panning. I want to control it at track level as I mayuse the flute on another track later.
FIRST PROBLEM:
Changing the volume level or panshave no effect. The mute & solo do work. The only way I can control the volume is using the Program volume fader which defeats the purpose of TRK MIX.

SECOND PROBLEM:
While recreating this I noticed that the volume level would occassionally change (not sure why or what changed perhaps the pluging or other variable yet to be determined

THIRD PROBLEM:
Whenever things did work normally and I was able to change the volume as expected, I would then play out a progression on a second track using the same plugin / program. So I have I now have the same flute program on track 1 and track 2. Now changing the volume level on either track fader results in both tracks volume being adjusted rather than independently. Again, this is the same as using the program volume, defeating the purpose of TRK MIX.

FOURTH PROBLEM:
Same as the third problem only this time I use a new instance of the plugin but use the same flute patch. I would have thought being a separate instance their would be no relation between the two programs but sure enough same thing. Change either track level and the other follows.

Findings:
This did not see to occur with drum tracks as I routinely use 1 single drum program and track out each kit part (kik,snare, hihat, etc.). Plugins seem to be the problem, I know they are handled differently by PROG MIX but TRK MIX operation should be the same. This is intermittent, most often the volume fader has no impact on the track and I have to resort to program fader to effect change.

Has anyone else had issues like this? Can anyone recreate this or is this just my systems (both Win & Mac tested). Does Akai know about this or is there something I have missed in the manual or forum cause it is driving me mad. I am pretty much realizing the my mixing will have to be done outside of the MPC which is a shame as I got the studio so I can bang out a quick beat and get a basic mix off while traveling etc.

Any help or suggestions are valued.
Was suppose to be in th bug report thread, sorry...

I figured out what was going on.... It is a 2 part problem, The first is my ignorance and the second is a software problem / limitation apparently.

My Fault:
I am one who believes in RTFM and I did in this case also, it was the old manual, like 1.2 or some shit. I did get a copy of a 1.7 manual (no 1.8... on site?) and it clarified a few things for me. Here is what is says:

RE: TRK MIX Volume Levels

Important: By default, some plugins do not support MIDI volume. In this case, adjust this at the plugin Track.

RE: TRK MIX Pan Levels

Important: By default, some plugins do not support MIDI panning by default. In this case, adjust this at the plugin Track.

By plugin Track I assume they mean Program...

Software Issue:
Why can we not control all volume / pans on all plugins from the TRK MIX? Is it a VST creator issues or software limitation as it works with some and not others. What is the limiting factor here? Multi-channel plugins only? Lack of routing to / from the VST. I am not a programmer but if at all possible, a revamp of the TRK MIX feature would be great. If it is only partially useful it is kinda wack. Also the TRK MIX feature allows you to make sequence specific volume & pan changes where Program does not change between sequences, so it could be need useful if this worked on all track types.

What I have confirmed thus far is that indeed some plugins allow you to control their midi volume & pans from TRK MIX others only from Program Mixer faders. Plugins that do allow you to control their midi volume & pans do not allow you to control them on multiple tracks (change one, changes them all). Creating new programs (multiple copies of the same plugin) will allow this independent control exactly as in Program mixer....so kinda useless as it is redundant and multiple plugins for same patch is a waste of system resources IMHO. For drum tracks, flawless so far.

I guess export out for mixing or try to use MPC as a VST inside DAW and route accordingly. More experimenting I guess.

yes it is a limitation/design of midi.. as in you can have 2 midi tracks, routing to the one plugin... the volume fader of each midi track sends midi track volume to that one plugin, but it only has one one volume fader... you are trying to send two sets of volume information to one midi fader.
If the plugin is like kontakt, you could load two instances of a instrument, on different midi channels.

then both those midi tracks could send to kontakt, and if you set the corresponding midi channels you will have seperated volume controll, but only because there are actually two midi instruments residing inside kontakt.

So , if you have one drum pgm, that is in essence one midi instrument, that is why you have to copy the pgm to have separate volume and pan levels...

dazastah wrote:yes it is a limitation/design of midi.. as in you can have 2 midi tracks, routing to the one plugin... the volume fader of each midi track sends midi track volume to that one plugin, but it only has one one volume fader... you are trying to send two sets of volume information to one midi fader. If the plugin is like kontakt, you could load two instances of a instrument, on different midi channels.

Yep I follow you on this point. I am finding that some plugins have no volume control whatsoever in TRK MIX and that is not cool, I wish I new how to fix this or identify inadvance other than trial and error.. Oh well Life could be worse I guess,

then both those midi tracks could send to kontakt, and if you set the corresponding midi channels you will have seperated volume controll, but only because there are actually two midi instruments residing inside kontakt.

Yes like any multi-channel VST, I guess.

So , if you have one drum pgm, that is in essence one midi instrument, that is why you have to copy the pgm to have separate volume and pan levels...

The only thing I disagree with here is that a drum type track consisting of a singleprogram dose not need to be copied. The single instance of a drum track type program can be used on multiple tracks and all have independent volume control, maybe becasue it treats each pad / sample as its own program... Not sure about external midi tracks or keygroups as I have not tested with them.

Jayson Wonder wrote:The only thing I disagree with here is that a drum type track consisting of a singleprogram dose not need to be copied. The single instance of a drum track type program can be used on multiple tracks and all have independent volume control, maybe becasue it treats each pad / sample as its own program... Not sure about external midi tracks or keygroups as I have not tested with them.

yes sorry i was wrong... That is the wierdness. or good thing about drum pgms in mpc. But confusing because then you would assume it to work with every other type of "mpc instrument types= plugin midi drum keygroup etc"

I haven't tested with external midi but bet it would not work like drum pgms... Keygroups would probably be the same as plugins and midi but you never know until testing....

Maybe they can look at improving this in future. I guess I'm happy there is some form of track control cause there was nothing on the old mpc. Maybe the paid jjos but I don't know as I only used free. I'll keep trying diff plugins and for now do my mixdowns in cubase or reaper.

Yeah i was using mpc software through reaper for a while.. I still do when i need to track out, if you on pc/windows you can use rearoute, which is much better than stemming out and reimporting, because you can mix as you make the beat... you dont need to seperate the tracks (one for kick one for snare) for separation because you can just route individual pads to what ever tracks you setup in reaper via rearoute... There's only 32 outs, but thats quite a bit and probably enough atm... I'm not going over that amount yet....

Ok I will look into this. It sounds exactly like what I want. Is it part or reaper or a separate download. Can I use external hardware hooked up to mpc with it?

When you install reaper, there is a check box in the options on install, called rearoute....
Just reinstall reaper by default rearoute doesn't install..

Rearoute works like rewire except you dont have midi synch between the two programs....(or many that streams into reaper)

Once installed you run reaper, make sure the asio driver is your soundcard interface, then open mpc standalone app and make sure driver for mpc software is rearoute...

http://stash.reaper.fm/v/21082/mpcrenre ... ckTemplate
theres a basic template i use.....

In mpc software the virtual outs in mpc software correspond with the rearoute input channels in reaper....

here's the thread if you wanna check it....
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=173318