Interesting, opinions on MPC timing from other forum.

Saw this in another forum, pretty interesting...

IMHO... it has more to do with how you handle the sample
rather than the timing
the old linn design handled the simultaneous triggering of samples in a much more "elegant" way than the simple "read from memory" samplers today
it had much to do with how the samples were played (read) from memory but the final mixing was analog
you can tell by those old machines having several outputs, with each drum sound potentially having its own output

this is something most "modern" samplers don't have, they read the sample and mix digitally then send to the output

the closest (IMHO) is the way emu does it (or used to do it), i think you can get the emu to do a good imitation of "linn swing" by programming the "arp mode" or using the "cords" to trigger sounds with a clock waveform
the old emu modules also do analog summing of multiple outputs

there's a lesson in there somewhere
everything new is not necessarily better

then this one:

let me put my opinion in another way
"groove" consists of two things
1) timing
2) accent

the timing on the MPC (or any of the old boxes) is not spectacular in any fashion

the difference is the perception of accents

to get the true swing "feel" you have to control the accent on the notes you are swinging

i would speculate the accent (or to be more precise - the perception of the accented drum sound) is what gives the MPC and the older boxes the "groovy" feel

the feel s undeniable in the MPC and older boxes

to me -- that comes from the analog summing of the drum sounds in or out of the MPC

i dont think it was intentional (well maybe a case of trial until it sounded as good as it does) because it is the result of short comings in the older designs themselves

many things control the perception of accents
1) the timing of the initial impule of the drum sound
2) the attack and decay of the drum sound
3) the different pyscho-acoustic effects of two sounds happening and the same time

but that's just a guess - who knows - just enjoy

ps: i just heard another use of the linn in mary j blige's "it a wrap" - it carries the whole damn tune
- damn thats a lot of hits for one designer

I can offer a hint. The beginning of a sample is never the beginning of a beat.

I think maybe what Bob is refering to is the fact that on an MPC or an SP, you can't do sample accurate cutting of the sample, b/c there's no visual waveform to edit. The funny trimming on the front end makes all the snares a 1/2 ms late, or all the hh hit at a slightly different time than the other hits. fonk.

I think the grid in protools feels too stiff, midi feels too loose for drums below 140 BPM, and drum machines are just the right amount of "slop" for the groove of most music. I think there's ways to fake it, tho...

Just some thought provoking stuff.

interesting...what forum is that b/c I want to start dropping in there...

interesting stuff... this is what the 60/3k forum is for, not egotistical arguements... nice post Elmacaco...

quote:
____________________________________________________________
I think maybe what Bob is refering to is the fact that on an MPC or an SP, you can't do sample accurate cutting of the sample, b/c there's no visual waveform to edit.
____________________________________________________________

Hmmm... It would appear that where an MPC is concerned this "poster" doesn't know the machine, never read the manual or perhaps ... didn't use it enough to know any better.

Sure, an MPC60 or MPC3000 doesn't have a "visual" waveform display but the editing is still sample accurate.

A sound within an MPC can have its start and end points edited with sample accuracy in the following way.

Soft st :SECONDS.MILLISECONDS.SAMPLES
Soft end:SECONDS.MILLISECONDS.SAMPLES

SECONDS (0-999),
MILLISECONDS (0-999)

...and, the last field:

SAMPLES (0-43; at the 44.1kHz sample rate, there are
approximately 44 samples to a millisecond.)

Rohan.

GOOD POINT rOHAN...

who leaves the drums quantized to grid perfectly anyway. no wonder it sounds stiff. note shifting is a beautiful thing.

peezie wrote:who leaves the drums quantized to grid perfectly anyway. no wonder it sounds stiff. note shifting is a beautiful thing.

Correct ...

Sample accurate editing in the "edit sound" screen in conjunction with many variations of swing, note shift and your own unique style of "no FCUCKING mouse clicks here" beat programming. Beauty in the beast !!!

Rohan.

this post reminds me the other day i rediscovered some of old rolling stones songs and , charlie watts way of playing drums just killed me , his snare drum is so late but so tight at the same time , like he has a special clock of his own , off topic sorry .

I can see why someone would think editing the start of a sample might not be as accurate as you would have with visual aids. but that can be addressed by editing the start of a tuned down sample.

many times what I think is the absolute beginning of a drum hit, isn't quite the start when I tune the sample down and fine there's some space before the drum hit.

but that's only if you want it that accurate.. that little space at the beginning is usually the problem when I layer snares/kicks and find they sound sloppy even quantized.

So yah, it can be as accurate as visually aided sample editing. Even with the help of graphics, when you zoom in (on the 2000 for example) on what you thought was the exact beginning of a drum hit may not be the case, you may see some space before the drum hit actually starts.

Agreed Rohan, the SP also is sample accurate as the numbers you see on the screen are samples. the 60 goes 0-39 in the sample field, and with the play before and after soft start and soft end I get quick and gapless starts if I want them.

It's just fun watching a non mpc forum trying to explain why it grooves, especially a forum that has a lot of very smart and pro members, the can still talk out their ass and get it wrong, but at least it doesn't turn into a fight.

pieuvre wrote:this post reminds me the other day i rediscovered some of old rolling stones songs and , charlie watts way of playing drums just killed me , his snare drum is so late but so tight at the same time , like he has a special clock of his own , off topic sorry .

he's a jazz drummer really, you can see the way he holds his sticks that he's more of a loose groove player than a tight, AC/DC type rock'n'roll drummer.

and if you watch him closely he never hits the hihat simultaneously with the snare, because when the stones were starting out he felt that with the recording techniques available back then the sound of the hihat played with the snare takes away from the fatness of the snare. funny thing is that nowadays many producers (beatmakers) like to do the exact opposite - to add a hihat under the snare even if there isn't a hihat in the beat to give it a more snappy sound.

^Very interesteding yo. I do like the drummer cat, I think hat under the snare detures from the fatness as well.. only time that goes down when i'm chopping breaks is when the break has a hat on the snare, and thiers no way around it.

Layering cross sticks and taking out all the low end and most of the low mid with a 13khz boost makes for snappy snares too.

That's an interesting post, and I often ask myself the question when I hear people's praises on the MPC sequencer groove. I clearly haven't found a definite answer, and I agree with you guys that a lot of it has to do with the choice of sounds, and the way you chop samples, insofar as hip hop or any other western music is concerned.
However, there is something in the way the sequencer is put together that generates "that swing", even at 16 w/ swing at 50%. You realize this if you try to sequence mpc sounds on cubase, for example. It's just not the same thing.
Also, the MPC swing is not neutral, but reflects the way swing should be in western music, or to simplify, in hip hop music for example, i.e. a relaxed swing with an emphasis on the first beat and a slight decay on the snare.
I say this because I play samba (traditional, not bossa nova which sounds more like jazz) in addition to hip hop. Samba beats are characterized by an emphasis on the second beat (no snare), and a very tight swing on a 2/4 sequence. Well, those beats are very difficult to program on the MPC with quantize on. They sound ok, but the swing is that of a hip hop beat whatever you do, not samba.
Anyway, that's in my experience, and suggestions are welcome.
peace

elmacaco wrote:Saw this in another forum, pretty interesting...

IMHO... it has more to do with how you handle the sample
rather than the timing
the old linn design handled the simultaneous triggering of samples in a much more "elegant" way than the simple "read from memory" samplers today
it had much to do with how the samples were played (read) from memory but the final mixing was analog
you can tell by those old machines having several outputs, with each drum sound potentially having its own output

this is something most "modern" samplers don't have, they read the sample and mix digitally then send to the output

the closest (IMHO) is the way emu does it (or used to do it), i think you can get the emu to do a good imitation of "linn swing" by programming the "arp mode" or using the "cords" to trigger sounds with a clock waveform
the old emu modules also do analog summing of multiple outputs

there's a lesson in there somewhere
everything new is not necessarily better

then this one:

let me put my opinion in another way
"groove" consists of two things
1) timing
2) accent

the timing on the MPC (or any of the old boxes) is not spectacular in any fashion

the difference is the perception of accents

to get the true swing "feel" you have to control the accent on the notes you are swinging

i would speculate the accent (or to be more precise - the perception of the accented drum sound) is what gives the MPC and the older boxes the "groovy" feel

the feel s undeniable in the MPC and older boxes

to me -- that comes from the analog summing of the drum sounds in or out of the MPC

i dont think it was intentional (well maybe a case of trial until it sounded as good as it does) because it is the result of short comings in the older designs themselves

many things control the perception of accents
1) the timing of the initial impule of the drum sound
2) the attack and decay of the drum sound
3) the different pyscho-acoustic effects of two sounds happening and the same time

but that's just a guess - who knows - just enjoy

ps: i just heard another use of the linn in mary j blige's "it a wrap" - it carries the whole damn tune
- damn thats a lot of hits for one designer

I can offer a hint. The beginning of a sample is never the beginning of a beat.

I think maybe what Bob is refering to is the fact that on an MPC or an SP, you can't do sample accurate cutting of the sample, b/c there's no visual waveform to edit. The funny trimming on the front end makes all the snares a 1/2 ms late, or all the hh hit at a slightly different time than the other hits. fonk.

I think the grid in protools feels too stiff, midi feels too loose for drums below 140 BPM, and drum machines are just the right amount of "slop" for the groove of most music. I think there's ways to fake it, tho...

Just some thought provoking stuff.

That there gave me a headache dude.

but yeah 16 levels on attack and decay does wonders for the drum accent.

whats analog summing?thats the only thing in there I didnt understand, good read