Share your knowledge on these two classic MPCs
By daftmunk Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:20 am
JAH wrote: I merely pointed out that Roger Linn's comments are disrespecting the MPC legacy.


you've got it backwards, Nukai and i'm sorry yourself in this thread are those disrespecting the MPC legacy by not giving Roger his due credit..

anyways here is yet another recent interview, this time on the evolution of drum machines with techno-house legend carl craig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x7sPzzmTtM

it seems quite obvious to me roger is passionate about drum machines..in general. he is not focused strictly on midi production centers or sampling, even though that is what he is best known for.

and again tempest is imo an amazing forward thinking drum machine in it's own right, just like the octatrack which is closer to MPC's in it's nature yet radically different in use..both are very popular in EDM production at the moment as step sequencing & analog play a prominent role:

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http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1642
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By JAH Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:26 pm
MPC-Tutor wrote:
JAH wrote:In this interview he basically implies the MPC-line is like the Titanic. To me that sounds like doesn't even respect what he help design. Than in other interviews he boasts that his product shaped an entire genre of music.


I see nothing wrong with him making those observations, they are in no way at odds with each other. He designed/created the MPC, it helped shaped a genre of music, but in his opinion Numark are now taking it in a direction that's going to sink it.

I certainly don't see anything wrong with anyone's opinion...everybody has one.

But I believe his is opinion is more based on his dislike with the company not the actual products and the direction taken. Because actually...Akai is taken the Ren in the direction he was previously raving about.

If you watched the Sweetwater videos, he spoke fondly of seeing next generation musical instruments that use the power of computers with a dedicated controller which takes musicians away from the mouse. This was several years ago before the Ren. So it would be a contradiction if he implies that Akai is taken it in a direction he doesn't like. But more on this direction later.

Next...I just watched some Namm videos of the Tempest. It actually helps back up the points I am making (yes...I know there will be many that disagree :nod: ). However...Roger Linn clearly stated that his and Dave Smith customers wanted two different products. Thus we have the Tempest today and continue to wait for a digital Linn Drum II (or what ever he finally calls it). This community boasts thousands of MPC lovers/customers. There are thousands of threads detailing what 'we' want in a next level product. While this forum doesn't encompass every MPC user in the world....Akai acknowledges that this forum has influenced the development of MPCs. The same MPCs that people outside this forum continue to buy that enables Numark/Akai to still release new MPCs.

Now this direction Akai is taking MPCs is a logical one..and in my opinion, a very popular one. It looks to be attracting current MPC users as well as ex-MPCs users that left MPCs for software long ago. I don't think many people outside of this forum cares that Akai is not making hardware MPCs...plenty of perfectly good MPCs on the second hand market. And only a small group of individuals would be willing to spend $2000 plus for a new MPC. And I am even throwing in the Linn Drum II. I don't believe Roger Linn will pull off for a $2000 price tag...meaning a product that 'his' customer base want....
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By MPC-Tutor Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:46 pm
But I believe his is opinion is more based on his dislike with the company not the actual products and the direction taken. Because actually...Akai is taken the Ren in the direction he was previously raving about.


Well clearly he doesn't like Akai, for good reason it would seem. I feel his reference to 'rearranging deck chairs on the titanic' would suggest (IMO) that he feels Akai are plodding along, tweaking here and there, not really innovating. I suspect he's looking beyond the obvious (oooh, shiny controller and computer software, just like Maschine) and looking to see if there's any true innovation and radical rethinking going on underneath it all.

That's what I take from it, anyway.
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By JAH Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:04 pm
MPC-Tutor wrote:
But I believe his is opinion is more based on his dislike with the company not the actual products and the direction taken. Because actually...Akai is taken the Ren in the direction he was previously raving about.


Well clearly he doesn't like Akai, for good reason it would seem. I feel his reference to 'rearranging deck chairs on the titanic' would suggest (IMO) that he feels Akai are plodding along, tweaking here and there, not really innovating. I suspect he's looking beyond the obvious (oooh, shiny controller and computer software, just like Maschine) and looking to see if there's any true innovation and radical rethinking going on underneath it all.

That's what I take from it, anyway.

But do most users really want innovation from an MPC? Or do they just want popular features found in other hardware samplers/workstations and DAWs? This forum suggests the latter.

dryad-66 wrote:If you look at those pictures for long enuff you will find yourself on the way to the music shop with credit card in back pocket :nod:

I actually just came from a local dealer that specializes in vintage gear to include a lot of analog stuff. Even played with a Tempest today. But walked out with an MV-8800.
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By MPC-Tutor Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:49 pm
JAH wrote:But do most users really want innovation from an MPC? Or do they just want popular features found in other hardware samplers/workstations and DAWs? This forum suggests the latter.


End users are not product engineers/designers - they don't tend to think in terms of innovation until they realise it's happened and become gobsmacked over how it's completely changed their whole user experience for the better - until that point, they are just happy to see their little gripes 'fixed'. Akai's normal way of fixing gripes is tweak the existing OS or hardware normally by 'additive' methods. Add an extra button, make the screen bigger, make the MPC bigger to etc.

An innovative approach would be to look at those issues at a more basic level and ask themselves 'Perhaps we're just doing this all wrong. What can we do to completely improve this from a fundamental level? What technology is available to us to change the way the MPC deals with this?'.

End users don't think like that (why should they?), which is why 'asking the forum' for feature suggestions, or observing discussions from afar without directly engaging back and forth with the engineers and product designers is unlikely to lead to any true innovation. You can't expect your customers to suggest the innovation to you.

Rather than 'You asked for this, so we added it', I'd prefer to see 'You asked for this and after investing $$$$$$ researching it, we realized we've been fundamentally doing it all wrong, especially considering the new tech available now' So we went back to the drawing board and came up with this - not only does it fix your gripes, it completely rethinks everything.
By m56p87 Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:28 pm
MPC-Tutor wrote:
JAH wrote:But do most users really want innovation from an MPC? Or do they just want popular features found in other hardware samplers/workstations and DAWs? This forum suggests the latter.


End users are not product engineers/designers - they don't tend to think in terms of innovation until they realise it's happened and become gobsmacked over how it's completely changed their whole user experience for the better - until that point, they are just happy to see their little gripes 'fixed'. Akai's normal way of fixing gripes is tweak the existing OS or hardware normally by 'additive' methods. Add an extra button, make the screen bigger, make the MPC bigger to etc.

An innovative approach would be to look at those issues at a more basic level and ask themselves 'Perhaps we're just doing this all wrong. What can we do to completely improve this from a fundamental level? What technology is available to us to change the way the MPC deals with this?'.

End users don't think like that (why should they?), which is why 'asking the forum' for feature suggestions, or observing discussions from afar without directly engaging back and forth with the engineers and product designers is unlikely to lead to any true innovation. You can't expect your customers to suggest the innovation to you.

Rather than 'You asked for this, so we added it', I'd prefer to see 'You asked for this and after investing $$$$$$ researching it, we realized we've been fundamentally doing it all wrong, especially considering the new tech available now' So we went back to the drawing board and came up with this - not only does it fix your gripes, it completely rethinks everything.


+1 every word. Your grasping at straws at this point JAH...
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By JAH Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:56 am
MPC-Tutor wrote:Rather than 'You asked for this, so we added it', I'd prefer to see 'You asked for this and after investing $$$$$$ researching it, we realized we've been fundamentally doing it all wrong, especially considering the new tech available now' So we went back to the drawing board and came up with this - not only does it fix your gripes, it completely rethinks everything.

This applies to all companies and not just isolated to Akai. What innovations are Roger Linn bringing to the table today? Can anyone say with a straight face that the Tempest is innovative? To me it is simply a Dave Smith synth with a Roger Linn sequencer. Basically adding some pepper to the drum machine market but not using any salt (no sampling)...resulting in a product a little spicy but bland.

When the MPC 4000 was released...it could be argued that it was an innovative, technically advanced MPC far beyond any MPC ever-built. The sampler was equally or more powerful than any standalone sampler at the time. It had computer integration never seen before in a sampling drum machine. It even let you choose the sampler editor you wanted to use.

...but nobody wanted it (too complicated and buggy). Today we look back and say it was ahead of its time. Some may say the MV-8800 was innovative. It was like an MPC DAW. But if it was selling like hot-cakes...Roland wouldn't have discontinued it in my opinion.

While I am fascinated with new technology and innovation....I want a product to first deliver what I expect. No company has yet to exceed my expectations for what a sampling workstation should be. These new MPCs may never be looked at as innovative. But if they add they functions that users want...is that a bad thing? That is a good thing in my opinion.
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By mr_debauch Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:18 am
JAH wrote:Can anyone say with a straight face that the Tempest is innovative? To me it is simply a Dave Smith synth with a Roger Linn sequencer. Basically adding some pepper to the drum machine market but not using any salt (no sampling)...resulting in a product a little spicy but bland.


well can anyone say anything akai has put out today is innovative? not really... it's a controller (which is a product being put out today) it's a pluggin drum machine (already a product being put out today) what exactly did they invent that the ren or any of their other recent products have that didn't exist before? Nothing as far as I know... but they took some existing ideas and merged them into one product. Cool... that product is for you so you may consider that fact an innovation.

the tempest came out, it is an analog drum synth ( that product exists today, but when was the last time a company put one out... it doesn't happen often, and when it does... usually it isn't a mass manufacturer that makes them... usually boutique companies are the ones behind actual analog gear) it's a sequencer... (exists today as well... everything has them almost... ) so the tempest didn't invent the analog drum synth (obviously) and it isn't the first sequencer... so maybe it has nothing that was invented that didn't exist before...

the work that went into both products is that each company put their own twist on how they made their respected products function.


the recent innovations or design ideas that roger has been involved with may not be only the tempest... I think the ideas of more sophisticates articulation capabilities in things like the linnstrument or the products designed by some of the guys he associates with are where the innovation is happening... like the guys who designed the eigenharp, the continuum.. and what have you. They may not all be instruments the general public can acquire, they may not be produced by a music gear company... they are design ideas (or prototypes, if you will) that I think are going in an innovative direction when it comes to playing digital instruments as though they are real physical instruments (such as the guitar, where you have control over string tension and other articulatory variables that produce character in sound)

the innovation in those types of products are that there are no products that have this level of articulation really... the midi standard allows aftertouch... this is about as far as controllers go in this regard. Many of these new types of prototypes dont use midi.. they make use of proprietary or newly created protocols to deliver the information to the instrument or sound module. Even roger's linnstrument at the moment makes use of a VSTi due to not having anything specifically suitable yet. still, the result is pretty fascinating (sonically speaking) and I think this style of articulation is something that deserves to be built upon in future products that music companies release...

most often corporations make products they can sell and make money with... and new tech is designed by inventors who's sole focus is designing a new product. Then those inventors sometimes can convince a corporation to pick it up and invest in it.
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By JAH Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:58 am
I never made any claim about the new MPCs being innovative.
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By mr_debauch Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:44 am
JAH wrote:I never made any claim about the new MPCs being innovative.


i know, i was adding a bit of perspective by relating a product that readers on this forum would understand.
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By MPC-Tutor Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:59 am
Jah, apart from it talking about an MPC not created by Numark, I feel your post just underlines my opinion more perfectly than I'd managed myself :)

The MPC4000 is the classic example of an additive evolution based on user feature requests. I remember the forums at the time, 'we want a proper sampler', 'we want a bigger screen' etc. So seemingly without question, these features were added to the MPC blueprint. The result, as you say, was an overly complicated, buggy MPC, which I would also point out was very large, heavy and incredibly costly.

Some people may call that innovation - what do you think? I don't personally - I applaud them for listening and adding the features and I'm sure all the current MPC4000 users are very happy with their purchase. But IMO, an innovative company would first listen to their customers 'wants', but then rather than acting like a 'dumb pipe', would then have worked on a more innovative way of making those wants a reality.

For example, rather than effectively bolt on a Z series sampler, they should have realised that many MPC users would find that far too complicated, so should have instead considered more creative ways to incorporate more advanced sampling features into the MPC OS that were more in-line with the MPC user's way of thinking. A good example of this way of thinking is the way apple approached iOS. Of course, that requires far more brain power and an innovative mindset.

Equally from a hardware POV, they should have looked at how they could have avoided a hefty size & weight increase, e.g. by utilising more modern tech, rethinking the way certain tasks are accomplished etc. I hate to use the smartphone example again, but they seem to add and improve more and more features while at the very least keeping prices static and weight/size ever decreasing. They're even managing to get bigger screens in while reducing the overal size of the phone.

So while some people could say the MPC4000 failed because it was too complicated, or too pricey, some may simply suggest that Akai took the lazy route and paid the price. It's a clunky way to go about things.

And yes, I understand that innovation costs money, but that's a business expense that would be recovered thanks to the huge sales of a truly innovative product :)

As for the Tempest, I'm not someone who said it was innovative, and TBH I don't know enough about it to comment, so someone else can chime in about that.

JAH wrote:
This applies to all companies and not just isolated to Akai. What innovations are Roger Linn bringing to the table today? Can anyone say with a straight face that the Tempest is innovative? To me it is simply a Dave Smith synth with a Roger Linn sequencer. Basically adding some pepper to the drum machine market but not using any salt (no sampling)...resulting in a product a little spicy but bland.

When the MPC 4000 was released...it could be argued that it was an innovative, technically advanced MPC far beyond any MPC ever-built. The sampler was equally or more powerful than any standalone sampler at the time. It had computer integration never seen before in a sampling drum machine. It even let you choose the sampler editor you wanted to use.

...but nobody wanted it (too complicated and buggy). Today we look back and say it was ahead of its time. Some may say the MV-8800 was innovative. It was like an MPC DAW. But if it was selling like hot-cakes...Roland wouldn't have discontinued it in my opinion.

While I am fascinated with new technology and innovation....I want a product to first deliver what I expect. No company has yet to exceed my expectations for what a sampling workstation should be. These new MPCs may never be looked at as innovative. But if they add they functions that users want...is that a bad thing? That is a good thing in my opinion.
By dryad-66 Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:19 am
Personally im glad akai went that way a built the 4000.The fact its huge is a good thing in a way.Like my woman says plenty of space to work on and it WILL take centre stage in your lab.If they had made it cheaper it would not have lasted.And the OS bugs were inevitable for this sophisticated beast.To think that the mpc model before this was the 2000xl......The sound and complexity of the material that comes out (ultimately)mirrors the physical oversize dimentions justifying size and expence imo.A game changer in the fact that it really is a studio in a box (there was nothing quite like this at the time?)apart from it does not record audio tracks.Weve gone the other way now heading into the endless void of the home computer which some would say was progress.
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By MPC-Tutor Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:45 am
The fact that you like it doesn't really have anything to do with it being innovative or not though. My point was that the more innovative approach to the development of the product would have for example, incorporated ways in which the OS could have been developed to be less complicated (while still offering the more advanced functionality), as well as looking at creative ways in which costs could have been kept down etc.

The purely additive approach is fairly lazy and leads to the inevitable increase in complexity, size, product cost and overal clunkiness. Is it any wonder that this product failed to light up the market? It was no different with Numark's MPC5000.

dryad-66 wrote:Personally im glad akai went that way a built the 4000.The fact its huge is a good thing in a way.Like my woman says plenty of space to work on and it WILL take centre stage in your lab.If they had made it cheaper it would not have lasted.And the OS bugs were inevitable for this sophisticated beast.To think that the mpc model before this was the 2000xl......The sound and complexity of the material that comes out (ultimately)mirrors the physical oversize dimentions justifying size and expence imo.A game changer in the fact that it really is a studio in a box (there was nothing quite like this at the time?)apart from it does not record audio tracks.Weve gone the other way now heading into the endless void of the home computer which some would say was progress.
By dryad-66 Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:04 am
Yeah but loads of great gear failed to sell in the mass market.And the smaller the boxes the less fun they are to use.I love the small footprints but not the fiddly interfaces.Simplicity is very important tho as most features on the 4k and 5k will not be used by most owners.What were nukai thinking with those data wheels on the 2.5 and 5k models : [