Share your knowledge on these two classic MPCs
By daftmunk Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:41 am
some wise words by tutor.. which actually tie into some of my observations on Tempest, but more on that later..

First of all, i have to keep reminding Jah that Tempest purpose is not to be a sampling drum machine but an analog drum machine, so when comparing it, it is ridiculous to say "its not innovating cuz it doesn't sample" compare it to other analog drum machines, of which there are only a hand few in all of drum machine history, the most famous being the TR-808 & TR-909 (which are the "MPCs" of EDM if you want).

In that perspective Tempest is quite revolutionary as those machines allowed very little tweaking of their sounds except for tuning attack decay & tone. In Tempest you have access to hundreds of parameters with the most common ones assigned to knobs on the front panel. Like i said previously Tempest also doubles as a fully programmable 6 voice polyphonic analog synth, with up to 4 oscillators per voice, Sub oscillators, Analog Lowpass & High-pass Filters, 5 enveloppes, 3 LFOs, Modulation Paths & more.. that alone makes it more powerful then most analog synthesizers on the market! It is also a hybrid instrument with a digital section containing samples of early digital drum machines such as Linn's first efforts the LM-1/LM-2 as well as waveforms from the Prophet VS. you can do all kinds of things to these digital samples, layer them, process them through the analog synth engine, reverse etc...

What was said above is mostly Dave Smith's contribution, so let's get back to Roger Linn's influence. as he mentioned in the above video i linked, the most obvious thing he rethought was the pad design, he moved from the classic 4x4 grid to a 8x2. as shocking as this may seem to MPC fans, in real use this actually makes a whole lot of sense. First of all you can use your 10 fingers to finger drum or play the pads like a keyboard, it feels more natural. Second of all this is a much better layout for 16 step sequencing which enables 2 rows of 8 steps which is easier to follow then 4 rows. another design enhancement is the OLED display, not too common yet on synths/drum machines but you may remember seeing them on samsung & motorola phones right before the switch to full color. imo this is hands down the best screen technology for instruments. there is no "backlight" the background is dark, the characters are sharp,bright with a ultra fast refresh rate. Then you have the FX touch sliders. Again i haven't really seen some like these on any other product before as there are LEDs under the touch strip that follow your finger movement, very practical as they give precise feedback, the resolution on these is also extremely high and the range can be configured. you can assign any parameter to these including cool stuff like note repeat quantize settings or playback speed.. this takes the good old "note variation slider" which is one of my personal MPC favorites (very sad to see it disappear btw) to a complete next level, awesome real-time control feature!

Finally the sequencer & OS. this is where Roger hits a home run. I've already talked about 16 beats mode and how it's basically brought Ableton Live type clip launching to patterns made in traditional MPC fashion. that alone is a great feat imo. There is also a step sequencer that allows not only note entry but velocity, pitch, pan etc basically what you would expect form a fully fledged step sequencer (unlike the bare bones approach in Ren). The display also gives great visual feedback for every mode and every knob turn (automatically switching and reverting, no need to page around!)

One last thing and this is what ties up to Tutor's observations on the 4K. Tempest can do all the above in a record breaking small footprint, this is quite an engineering feat especially if you consider all the analog components which usually take up a lot of space.. the construction and attention to detail is also impressive, heavy black anodized textured metal chassis, gorgeous wood side panels, the best feeling pads ever (this often gets touted but i feel it's warranted in this case), high resolution knobs and encoders with adequate sizing and spacing.. i could go on & on so i'll stop here as there is too much to cover in one post but i think you get the picture.. Tempest is no regurgitated effort, especially when comparing it to other analog drum machines it's pretty much on another solar system level!
By dryad-66 Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:47 am
daftmunk wrote: Tempest can do all the above in a record breaking small footprint, this is quite an engineering feat especially if you consider all the analog components which usually take up a lot of space.. the construction and attention to detail is also impressive, heavy black anodized textured metal chassis, gorgeous wood side panels, the best feeling pads ever (this often gets touted but i feel it's warranted in this case), high resolution knobs and encoders with adequate sizing and spacing.. i could go on & on so i'll stop here as there is too much to cover in one post but i think you get the picture.. Tempest is no regurgitated effort, especially when comparing it to other analog drum machines it's pretty much on another solar system level!


Two things i dont like about the Tempest.1.the sound does not charm me at all.2.Stuck in 16 and 32ths resolution.Come on...its not 1985 is it?
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By MPC-Tutor Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:49 am
dryad-66 wrote:Yeah but loads of great gear failed to sell in the mass market.And the smaller the boxes the less fun they are to use.I love the small footprints but not the fiddly interfaces.Simplicity is very important tho as most features on the 4k and 5k will not be used by most owners.What were nukai thinking with those data wheels on the 2.5 and 5k models : [


The key is to enhance the features but retain or even improve simplicity - complex features don't have to be complex to use (iOS again!). I also appreciate the point about bigger machines run the risk of being fiddly to work with, but again much of that is because rather than rethink the fundamental approach to certain features, the solution seems to be to just add more buttons, and hence the requirement to be larger to reduce the cramped feel.

I mentioned that in my Ren hardware review - there's more and more buttons, but we're in an age where touch screens are the norm. Do we still need to press button after button to zoom in, forever spinning data wheels or sliders to change edit points? Why not just pinch and zoom on a touchscreen using multitouch gestures? Just an example, but I'm pretty sure a decent engineer or product design team could come up with some pretty awesome ideas for a powerful MPC that wouldn't just involve making it bulkier and bigger and more complicated to use.
By daftmunk Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:01 pm
dryad-66 wrote:
Two things i dont like about the Tempest.1.the sound does not charm me at all.2.Stuck in 16 and 32ths resolution.Come on...its not 1985 is it?


it's an analog synth you can program it to sound any way you want, but i will say this: the presets are complete doo-doo so unless you've spent the adequate time to make your own then you're not judging it's real potential. fwiw there was a recent sound contest and i've heard the next batch of units will ship with those much improved sounds as presets..

the resolution? the ppq is at 384ppqn with the processor handling things at 4 times that resolution. if you are speaking quantize settings currently it's 1/8th to 1/32 triplet, but it's obviously capable of higher, you can shift around on tick level in step edit..

JAH wrote: I don't believe Roger Linn will pull off for a $2000 price tag...meaning a product that 'his' customer base want....


the Tempest is already a $2000 instrument, i have no doubt Linn will spare no cost for his next product, that is why he paired up with Dave Smith a high-end boutique instrument manufacturer that builds in USA & values quality over quantity and not "inMusic" or whatever big corporate company that values cheap labor and profit margins over quality control and customer satisfaction..
By dryad-66 Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:07 pm
MPC-Tutor wrote:
dryad-66 wrote:Yeah but loads of great gear failed to sell in the mass market.And the smaller the boxes the less fun they are to use.I love the small footprints but not the fiddly interfaces.Simplicity is very important tho as most features on the 4k and 5k will not be used by most owners.What were nukai thinking with those data wheels on the 2.5 and 5k models : [


The key is to enhance the features but retain or even improve simplicity - complex features don't have to be complex to use (iOS again!). I also appreciate the point about bigger machines run the risk of being fiddly to work with, but again much of that is because rather than rethink the fundamental approach to certain features, the solution seems to be to just add more buttons, and hence the requirement to be larger to reduce the cramped feel.

I mentioned that in my Ren hardware review - there's more and more buttons, but we're in an age where touch screens are the norm. Do we still need to press button after button to zoom in, forever spinning data wheels or sliders to change edit points? Why not just pinch and zoom on a touchscreen using multitouch gestures? Just an example, but I'm pretty sure a decent engineer or product design team could come up with some pretty awesome ideas for a powerful MPC that wouldn't just involve making it bulkier and bigger and more complicated to use.


Good points and something to reflect on.Altho the saying "if it aint broke,dont fix it"could apply here due to the complx sensitive nature of touch screens.I had a Roland v synth xt recently that i sold because i could not get used to the colour touch screen.And my nice new phone was useless after getting moist??? :? I guess im an oldie and cannot get used to the new tech unless i see it as solid and feels confident to use(robust)A certain amount of computer tech on screen editing on the home computer will be needed for sure.Botton line as far as quality is concerned is money and not bringing down the price to consumer(cheap)level.No future in that.And just as important nukai need to be honest with the public and stop tricking us.Maybe then we can have a nice,progressive conversation..

Do we still need to press button after button to zoom in, forever spinning data wheels or sliders to change edit points? Why not just pinch and zoom on a touchscreen using multitouch gestures? Just an example, but I'm pretty sure a decent engineer or product design team could come up with some pretty awesome ideas for a powerful MPC that wouldn't just involve making it bulkier and bigger and more complicated to use


edit-for me a pen and screen system would work for all those editing waves jobs.Good point about that editing thing.
By dryad-66 Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:11 pm
daftmunk wrote:
dryad-66 wrote:
Two things i dont like about the Tempest.1.the sound does not charm me at all.2.Stuck in 16 and 32ths resolution.Come on...its not 1985 is it?


it's an analog synth you can program it to sound any way you want, but i will say this: the presets are complete doo-doo so unless you've spent the adequate time to make your own then you're not judging it's real potential. fwiw there was a recent sound contest and i've heard the next batch of units will ship with those much improved sounds as presets..

the resolution? the ppq is at 384ppqn with the processor handling things at 4 times that resolution. if you are speaking quantize settings currently it's 1/8th to 1/32 triplet, but it's obviously capable of higher, you can shift around on tick level in step edit..

JAH wrote:


The resolution thing is ok then.Just cant justify my time playing in real time and being quantised.Thats just nonesense.And as far as the sound is concerned to say it can sound anyway you want is nuts.Its got a personalty and its a harsh one.Until im convinced otherwise.Oh yeah-we want to load samples.Roger??
By daftmunk Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm
dryad-66 wrote:The resolution thing is ok then.Just cant justify my time playing in real time and being quantised.Thats just nonesense.And as far as the sound is concerned to say it can sound anyway you want is nuts.Its got a personalty and its a harsh one.Until im convinced otherwise.Oh yeah-we want to load samples.Roger??


i never said it didn't have a personality but it is fact that analog synthesis can be shaped in an infinite number of ways, just takes skill & experimentation. i can guarantee you i've gotten some very smooth & deep sine tones as well as creamy basses, liquid leads & lush pads... some of them that rival with my Moog no kidding.. you do have to be careful with parameters such as feedback, distortion & dedicate voices & use the separate outs to not overload the headroom which most users ignore giving it that harsh tone you describe.. sample import is technically possible inside the digital section but isn't a priority as the focus is on analog and there are other (better) tools for that
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By JAH Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:38 pm
All I ever wanted was an MPC without limitations of fixed hardware. The Ren is a direction where I wanted Akai to take the new MPC line. I hope they expand on the Ren and perhaps make a true hardware version that can also be used disconnected from a computer. As it stands now, it is software. They have a team of programmers. I hope they add some innovation and continue to add more features to satisfy everyone that has one as well as potential users.

Now getting back to Roger Linn....contrary to what some of you imply....I wish him all the best. But he doesn't get a pass today because he is legendary for what he did when many of you weren't born. He needs to deliver what he got 'us' so hyped up for back in 2007....a new sampler that boasts to go beyond what other companies are doing.
By jpeg Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:24 pm
discuss


we all no dude is a legend for the 60 and the 3k

yes the tempest looks cool

but this does not make dude infallible

yes nuakai are profit mongers like any corporation u can name

my question lets look at the products dude developed in the past 10 years since the computer age of production came into power, what has dude put out/developed that is practically priced and practical in terms of functionality, ease of use, convenience when working with computers?

my next question is if indeed dude has produced nothing noteworthy in the past 10 years why is it a crime to mention this?

no one is disputing the greatness he achieved in the 80's with his creations, but the new designs strike me as somewhat nostalgic which there is nothing wrong with but i dont feel he is taking into account the modern age of computing in his latest designs.

he is defo an inventor first and foremost and this is commendable but he would do well to partner with someone who is younger and more responsiveness to current trends.

shit NI should pick this dude up and have him either develop maschine or if dude went stay dolo and drop a new product called Roger Lin 3500 (that would really piss nuakia off)

could be call RL3500 stand alone and usb connected sampling drum workstation and if they can get the price point ad $600 that would **** every body up
By szr Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:52 pm
He may have produced many things that where not released since the mpc3k.... and It's kind of arrogant to talk about him as if he owes us something.
Maybe he gets alot more joy from playing his guitar, than trying to cater to the me generation.

I do think he should team up with someone younger for the linndrum II as you suggested.
Did you look at this: http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/preview- ... ument.html
..... kind of a cool piece of gear....
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By Ian Canefire Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:39 pm
Cheers SZR that was an intelligent response.

The people who make things are not always the ones with the final say when the product is released. If you had a great idea and then went and got financing for it you would likely need a business professional to help. Very few executives have the engineering acumen and vice versa.
If you build the ultimate "THING" and it never needs a replacement part or an update then you end up going out of business. The average person who plays the game Monopoly with a group battles and argues and deals in an attempt to drive everyone out of the game through bankruptcy. The more sophisticated mind gets themselves to a point where they have power, make money and create a system where the money keeps coming in while the rest get just enough to keep playing.
This is the model of our business schools today. So unless you are in a board room you have no clue. The model for successwas different in the 80's and 90's. Then companies had moderates and socialists around. Now the capitalist model is firmly installed and you only need to be an incrementalist.
If you want better, then design it and spend the money for it. Don't be so quick to knock down someone else who is smarter than you, who has built machines that have helped so many creative minds. And yes Roger Linn is smarter than you because you are the one wishing he did more for you as you are giving him your money and mental space.
cheers,
Ian
Last edited by Ian Canefire on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By scoobylol Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:41 pm
I think you've almost answered your own question. Linn is the man who works in his garage simply because that's what inspires him. It doesn't need to be relevant, and the fact that he delivers niche products is in my opinion a breath of fresh air.

And really, who cares about current trends? Leave that to the Fisher Price companies who like to leech off end users for nothing more than profit. Although debateably you could say the Tempest does cater to trends in a sense. People are going nuts for analogue again, and it's the only machine on the market with those features, albeit at a price point.

In terms of the operating system on the Tempest I think it's completely understandable that he is delivering a modern derivative of things he's got experience with. It makes complete sense, and not only that, but not everybody wants products that are reliant on your main computer.

As with everything it comes down to what you want in a product and whether it takes your interest. I think the Tempest is very a noteworthy collaboration. There seems to be reasonably regular updates, and I have no doubt people will be using their Tempest in 30 years time. Can't say the same for many things out there at the moment.

And I think that's another point. His products seem to be about steady, and stable evolution which in turn leads to quality output. As opposed to cashing in. Looking forward another 20 years he probably realises as a lot of people do that these "hybrids" are a very temporary thing, it's been done. They're mostly based on his original ideas anyway so I doubt he can see much point in contributing to a passing trend, only to get ripped off again haha.

He might not even care about the "industry" any more either. The guy's probably happy working on his own ideas quietly. Once bitten twice shy.

There's a point in all of that somewhere. Good thread :nod:
By jpeg Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:44 pm
szr wrote:He may have produced many things that where not released since the mpc3k.... and It's kind of arrogant to talk about him as if he owes us something.
Maybe he gets alot more joy from playing his guitar, than trying to cater to the me generation.

I do think he should team up with someone younger for the linndrum II as you suggested.
Did you look at this: http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/preview- ... ument.html
..... kind of a cool piece of gear....



i agree he dont owe us a dam thing im sure the 3k was not designed with hip hop in mind.


i have nothing against dude playing his guitar on some **** the world ish, i just dont agree that dude should be treated as a saint cause he was the shit in the 80's

i dont hate nuakai for capitalising off the 3k cos that unit is held in high regard and they bought the rights to it so why not use it.