Share your knowledge on these two classic MPCs
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By TicToc Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:12 am
correct me if Im wrong, but isnt the sp12/sp1200 mono out? so it would only play on one side.

Put it through a mixing board to create a stereo image, and then pan as necessary to get your stereo mixdown. Also, use all 8 outs, not just the mix out.

Should work fine, andreas, mine does. If not, yours is busted.
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By itchyvinyl Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:36 pm
Yeah, the SP mix out is one 1/4" mono jack. If you're running it to a stereo input, you'll have to get a spltter at Radio Shack so at least the mono image is centered, not just on the left or right....or just use the 8 outs to a mixer.

El,
My first real sampler was a S2000, and then a S3000XL, so I guess I really got used to moving the digit cursor from the ones to the tens or hundreds place. So now on the MPC2KXL, I'm still comfortable doing it like that.
I also like that I can change all that with my left hand, dealing with the keypad and modes etc. with my left hand only....and use my right hand on the pads to hear while I'm trimming. I'm right handed, so my right feels most at home on the pads. Can't do that on the 60, the pads are on the left.
It really IS what you're used to. I can change modes with shift + number pad with one hand and my eyes closed.
Maybe after spending more time with the 60 I can get to that point on her too.

By elmacaco Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:51 pm
I'm righthanded too, and I love having the pads on the left, it could be what you are used too, but I also think that when you know both interfaces well is when you can really judge the benefits and drawbacks of each.

It sounds like you have spent much more time on the XL than the SP or 60, give it time and learn each. You'll probably still prefer the XL, but you'll see what all the fuss is about in a few years.
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By DJAndreas Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:53 pm
Lets be honest, its not even close, the 60 is better. I mean, think of it, you have to chose either the 1200 or the 60. Man, How could you say "ok, I take the 1200," noway, man, I couldn't leave my 60 behind, YO F*CK THAT!

By Kilowax Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:32 pm
what would be better than a 60?... from this board...
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By TicToc Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:26 pm
As a user of both a 2000XL and a 60, the answer to your question is...

nothing is better than a 60.

unless it's a 60 with a 950.

:lol:

By elmacaco Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:56 pm
Yo tic break it down man, let us know why you prefer the 60 to the XL.

By Kilowax Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:06 pm
ONE reason why I like ALL my sampler is: differents...
I look at that feature or lack of features for this or that gear, ask my self "what do I need for that track", then I choose...
I like complementary, my ASR-10 isn't better than my S1000 they're complementary...


A 60 better than an XL? :lol: :lol: :lol: only from this board world :lol: ...
Different will be a better word :wink: ...I mean, 4000 users would turn mad @ "as a user of both XL & 4000,...,XL's better than 4000"!!!...
but I feel your answer 8) , thanks to try out.
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By TicToc Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:29 pm
I got pretty lazy with the graphical wave editing in the XL. Used my eyes not my ears. 60 wont let you do that.

The number pad/keys in the middle of the unit is more convenient, its RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. Makes precise editing easier. I had a Zoom Sampletrak for 2 years, I got pretty Jedi with the digits, and "knowing" where to chop the sample length.

Im also left handed, and the pads on the 60 (left side!) are easier for me to reach than the ones on the XL. Its more natural and I dont feel like Im reaching across the machine.

No bullsh*t "open window" stuff to have to try to remember when you're stoned and in the middle of a very good idea. Menu tree is more straight forward.

Plus the convertors just sound better. The best way I can put it without using terms like "Fat" or "Warm" or "crunchy" is that it just sounds more like a record. I programmed some drum sequences and they dont sound like they were made on a machine at all. It genuinely sounds like a RECORD being played. That's just the way the 60 sounds. Again, maybe Im trippin, and what Im hearing may just be the sampler's unique coloration (yay 12 bit!), or could be the convertors, or both. If the convertors themselves are nothing special, and the beautiful sound is created by the onboard sampler itself, than all the more reason to say this thing is dope.

I like the workflow process, I like the menus, and I like that I can get my idea out and audible about 5x faster than I could on the XL. Making beats on the XL is tedious, and Im sometimes stoned and forget my idea midway into pushing "open window" about 40540590954 times.

In the end, the working process is more fun because its more intuitive, and the end resultant sound is more like what I heard in my head when I sat down to make that beat. I don't know about you all, but I generally dont bother to even start on a beat until I have it more or less finished in my head. I rarely sit down and "see where it takes me", I usually have several rough ideas in my head that I finalize on the machine. Thing is, it took forever to do that on an XL, and since I hadnt played with any other model of MPC, I just assumed that was par for the course. The 60 proves that wrong...at least for me. I find it to be much easier to use this, as the simplicity and elegance of the OS design just make everything more intuitive. The limitations force creativity, but they also lower the learning curve of the machine's basic functions. The limitations I faced on the XL were more OS-based, trying to understand the logic of the sequences of buttons as I memorized them.

As far as sound, I know what I want "it" (whatever "it" may be at that particular moment that I sit down with the machine) to sound like, and I can do that on both machines, but it requires less effort and "workarounds" to get the same result on the 60. Maybe its because Im stuck in a early 90s hip hop timewarp, but the beats I make on the 60 sound more like what I think of when I think of the word "hip hop", with much less effort to get that same sound out of an XL. In the end that is what all of us seek to achieve, creating music that WE LIKE and would listen to EVEN IF WE DIDNT MAKE IT. We have a "sound" we are chasing in our head, and we do what must be done to achieve that. I find I achieve it with less effort on the 60, and so I have extra time and energy to spice it up, find more samples, tweak....whatever. I feel like I achieved something everytime I sat down at the 60, and I didnt always have that feeling with the XL.

Thus, I can be more productive when I catch inspiration, and get more done quicker, without having to tweak and adjust and re-EQ and bitcrunch and process and resample.

This. Box. Is. Dope.

Shame it took me this long to figure it out...I should have just used logic and assumed that drum machines/samplers, especially the ones popularized by hip hop.....go through evolutions that parallel my favorite hip hop artists. They were dope when they first came out and were hungry, and as time went by they took shorts and made product that was, though good, nowhere near as good as the earlier days. Rappers do that, and apparently Akai did too, because basically they broke the mold after they made the 60, and I can see now why some say that the later models (2000, 2000XL etc) pale in comparison.

Perhaps because my first sampler was that cheap little Zoom Sampletrak, this just feels like a bigger version of that. I dont have to devise intricate plans for programming, I can simply bang it into the pads and sequence almost as quickly as I can think it, and the elegance of the timing on the sequencer gives a distinctive funk to your drums. I cant really explain it to anyone who hasnt used both, but the sequencer is just better, period.

Richie Hawtin once talked about the 808 and said that it had a "groove" to it based on the limitation of only having full numbers for the BPM setting. You couldnt program a 93.5 beat, only 93 or 94. So he would intentionally create sequences that were 93.5 to exploit a glitch in the machine---if the actual sequence doesnt fall on a full number, the machine sort of "bounces" back and forth between 93 and 94, giving the machine its very own built in artificial "swing". That 808 bounce was unmistakeable and couldnt be duplicated or reproduced (since it stemmed from a programming error proprietary to only THAT machine). Thats the closest analogy I can come to describing the swing/timing on a 60.

Its not glitched, but it definitely is a different swing feel than an XL, though mathematically it probably is nearly the same. I figure it has something to do with the algorithms that interpret the sequence data, because if I remember correctly the actual "sequencer" engine is the same in both. Maybe Im just stoned, but I can both feel and hear a difference in the way a beat moves on this thing.

We use these machines for the feeling they give us when we make a beat, period. I feel like a musician when I use a 60, and I feel more like a programmer when I use an XL. I feel like the XL did a lot of the work for me.

Akai really did drop the ball after Roger Linn left. I wanna play with a 3000 now!

By elmacaco Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:49 pm
You essentially are playing a 3000 with the 3.10 OS, if you still want filters and such, the 3000 is a good choice, but the 60 has some advantages as well, number one in my book is the panel layout, it seems they wanted to make the 3000 smaller so they put the buttons where they would fit.

The 60 panel was designed y the guy who designed the panel of the VCS 3 and Synthi A and AKS for EMS. I didn't know that until last year, great analog connection.

Great post tic, these are things I've been saying for a while, but I started on the 60, so people can discount that like a guy who tells you he saw a UFO while on Shrooms.

The simplicity of the 60 also lets you really exploit the functions of the sequencer, you end up using things largley ignored on the higher models,as tools, rather than as effects.

Also, the 808 thing, the timing on the 808 is not an error, it was the best design they could get at the time ('78 I think) and if you have an LCD BPM readout somewhere you can watch it jitter, it goes from say 91 to 92 throughout the use of it. But it does so in a cool smooth way. Even when slaved.

The sound of the 60 is also a great thing, hard to talk about, but you said it well Tic, get yourself a 60 and get to work!!

By Kilowax Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:58 pm
"Get myself a 60...", nah :lol: :lol: ...I don't NEED it to make music... besides I'm a musician, with or without an MPC def. :lol: ...
I like to read you guys talking bout your tools, y'all great!
I'm owning an SP & an ASR10, but it make no difference for me working from there to XL or 4000...

AFA Open Window/ Rolling Menus, I'm glad XL & 4000 have it! I can't imagine all those dedicated knobs for all XL & 4000 features... and,...I'm sure some knobs are logically missing on you guys computers...
I'm from the Atari1040 age, but I just like my nu G5, nothing wrong with the 1040 I can play it everyday, but you know: what f***ck that and gimme my G5!!!

By elmacaco Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:27 pm
I was talking to Tic about getting a 60, which is what he's talking about.

Hater :twisted:

We're talking shop we can use anything, but what we like to use and what gets the job done quicker for each of us is what we are talking about.

You got an SP, ASR 10, XL and a 4000, and you're dissing us for talking about an XL owner liking the 60 and wanting one?

About dedicated buttons for menus ( the only dedicated knobs on the 60 are master volume contrast and the little one on the back) it is an elegant design, oh, and there is a large industry making knob boxes for computers and other equipment that lacks them, there must be something good about them!

By Kilowax Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:16 am
just easy elma! I wasn't dissing 60 users,neither XL users you're tripping!
but I've noticed that you're always talking about waveform window and so as obstacle to the chopping process... :shock:
I'm not a hater, I said I have sampler with and wtihout those feat. you talk bout... and none are "better" way to work just different IMO...
Do I said I owned a 4000?
:shock:
I work one easy as my XL... me an hater? :roll:

By ntalec Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:49 am
Nobody can pick gear for you (even though all the forums on the net seem to revolve around the thought they can).
I have used just about every sampler that has come out of been available at some time or another.
It's all just opinions and preference, nothing more nothing less.
The 60 is what it is, the same about the SP, XL, 3000 etc.
People should stop saying what's better and just explain why the like the unit they choose to use.
Saying a 60 sounds better than a xl is a bold statement, simply because it sounds better to you.
The same would be true for someone saying the xl sounds better than the 60.
I like the layout of the 60 but the xl also make a lot of sense to me.
Think about your drum kits, are your kicks to the left pad or to the right pad?
Is either way right or wrong
My first ASR was a rack so that's what I learned on, but it only took me 30 minutes to realize why I could work faster on the ASR keyboard than the rack.
The Pads on the 60 are nice but the funky buttons on the SP feel right for the way the SP sequencer works.
The Emax sounds nice but not like the SP (or Emulator II), where it gets stranger is that the with the filters and DSP card in the ESI-2000 I can get filter sounds and such that make using the Emax or S-900/950's more effort than it's worth.
I could chop beats on any of the samplers, but to me the sampler that's comes to mind when I am planning to chop is the ASR.
It's just so fast when it comes to building chopped instruments.
I fully understand why Alchemist sticks with it.
I probably could go one but no real point, it's just what works for one individual and helps me keep the bills paid.
One last thing about the sound of the converters and the output, it has a lot more to do with what you are feeding the sampler to and your methods of tracking (or not tracking if your are doing the 2-track thing) than most people realize.

Just for the record as far as samplers my current list is;
ASR-10 keyboard (1)
ASR-10 rack (2)
MPC-2000xl studio
SP-1200 black
MPC60I fully exp
ESI-2000 turbo zip
S-950
S-900
EMAX HD keyboard (now w/SE option)

By elmacaco Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:35 am
You upgraded the emax to an SE!!!

Congrats!!

Sorry kilo, it's been violent around here lately, sorry for snappin at ya.

I always say that they are just different when people say one is better than the other, but in the context of why someone likes anything better, it should be read that it is what they like better, not an absolute. I asked Tic Toc why he liked it better, so that context should cover his statements.

The 60 sounds better than the 2k in some cases, and the 2000 sounds better than the 60 in other cases.

Also, the degree with which you get into a piece of gear is greatly determined by what you like about it and how much you like it.

I heard the emax and I knew I had to have one, I got one, and now I fly on that thing. I can't blame anyone for opting for a different sampler, it depends what you are after and what you value in a piece of gear, the emax is really archaic.

Ntalec, I like your statement about the realization of working faster on the keyboard ASR than the rack. Few people talk about ergonomics of gear. Care to elaborate?