Sending NRPN values > 128

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Sending NRPN values > 128

By 3K. Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:12 pm
My recent synth add-on takes NRPN or CC values to control its features, interestingly the range of NRPN values has a better range. As the 3000 is my sole sequencer and I'm using loadsa automation for my external gear, I'm disappointed to learn that the 3000 seems to be limited to a range of 128 regardless of NRPN and—of course—CC.

An example NRPN message packet is
"C38-DATA ENTRY LSB Val: 26 (limited to 0-127)
C98-NON-REG PARAM LSB Val: 90
C99-NON-REG PARAM MSB Val: 0"

Is there a way to have the 3000 read and send values > 128?

Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By Clint Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:30 pm
If it were possible Rohan would probably have hooked it up with Vailixi. But to be fair most people would have no need to what your asking, so you just have to work with the limitations of the machine. Unless you can find some software that can help??
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By SimonInAustralia Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:16 pm
An NRPN message is split up over a number of normal MIDI CC messages which are sent at once, as you have listed in your NRPN 'message packet'.

Doesn't the MPC already record and playback those MIDI CC messages?

Have you tried recording them and playing them back?

Have you tried recording them and then looking at what is recorded in the MPC Step Edit?
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By 3K. Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:08 pm
Simon, yes, tried and tested it all. Problem is, all recorded values only represent parts of the action. A recorded filter sweep won't sound right during playback, which makes automation pretty much useless in this case (DSI Prophet 12).
Automating a Roland Alpha Juno 1 (via Sysex only) and some Kenton CV/Gate boxes (all CCs) works as expected, though.

Clint, a rather experimental workaround could be a slave DAW to record and playback the automation only and feed this along with the 3000 through a MIDI merger into the synth. I'll have another go at it with pure CCs, albeit these aren't available for all parameters … this kind of messing with machines really **** up creative rushes :vomit: This track already could have been finished.
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By SimonInAustralia Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:42 pm
Possibly just the way the event recording functionality of the MPC handles the 3-4 separate MIDI CC messages being sent for a NRPN, being sent one after the other due to the serial nature of the MIDI protocol, and being recorded onto possibly different steps of the MPC sequencer.

Have you had a look in step edit to see what it is doing with them?

Have you tried with timing correct turned off?

Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By Clint Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:10 pm
3K. wrote:… this kind of messing with machines really **** up creative rushes.
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By Shostakovich Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:32 pm
3K. wrote:Simon, yes, tried and tested it all. Problem is, all recorded values only represent parts of the action. A recorded filter sweep won't sound right during playback, which makes automation pretty much useless in this case (DSI Prophet 12).
Automating a Roland Alpha Juno 1 (via Sysex only) and some Kenton CV/Gate boxes (all CCs) works as expected, though.


Is it because that there are too many event data for the 3K to process? In which case can you thin the herd by using the Min Change feature? Does that make a difference?.

As for the Juno, were you able to control ADSR and filter via the sysex? Asking because curious.
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By 3K. Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:41 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:Have you had a look in step edit to see what it is doing with them?

Have you tried with timing correct turned off?

It isn't recording a steady flow of values, in fact I can only hear the modulation run through the sequence but can't see the changes in step edit mode. You can see the first event, that's about it. Turning timing correct to OFF/384 doesn't help. A brief lookup on the net hints at problems where sequencers won't provide extended CC/NRPN support with the P12 (such as Ableton Live). I had the 3000 choke and crash numerous times when I forgot to turn Soft MIDI Thru off and fiddle knobs plus send automation data. The 3000 would hardly ever crash before.
What gives … Resorting to manual control and adapting my arrangement for this track.

Shosta, please elaborate on the Min Change feature …
I had the Juno controlled by a Behringer BCR2000, which I set up according to this http://www.synthgraphics.com/Alpha-Juno-Programmer.html layout using its built-in LEARN function.
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By Shostakovich Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:17 pm
When you turn a knob incrementally you get an CC event per increment in the MPC. This could translate to thousands of MIDI events over the length of the song. If there are too much data, the MPC will not be able to process all of them and that may be the reason why it's crapping out. It's a long shot. But the minimum change value simplifies the event list so that the MPC can handle it. The removal of these superfluous data events means a filter sweep can be represented by far fewer points and therefore eases the playback. Like I said, it's a long shot but I've used this before with my Juno when I've captured CC. The MPC didn't fall over but was getting very sluggish!

As for the sysex, I don't know how you've set this up I thought it was reserved for parameters like patch changes and so forth.

COMMENT: A large number of these mix change events can
cause minor slowing of playback due to the large processing
requirement. To reduce the number of these events, increase
the Minimum Change field’s setting for these event types
(in the MIDI Input Filter screen) to as high a number as
acceptable before recording mix changes. This will thin out
the mix data during recording, lessening the processing
requirement in playback.
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Re: Sending NRPN values > 128

By SimonInAustralia Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:25 am
3K. wrote:I can only hear the modulation run through the sequence but can't see the changes in step edit mode. You can see the first event, that's about it.

Have you tried changing the function of the < and > keys so that they move to the next event in the track, rather than the next step?...
2. Use the REWIND, FAST FORWARD, or LOCATE keys to find the desired location within the sequence. As in the Play/Record screen, the [<<] and [>>] keys move to the previous or next bar boundary and the [<] and [>] keys move to the previous or next step within the active track. (It is also possible to change the function of the [<] and [>] keys to search forward or backward to the next event within the track. This option is selected in the Step Edit Options screen.)
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