Share your knowledge on these two classic MPCs
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By tvent Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:48 pm
Hi all,
Is there a way to address more than 128 different programs (patches) on an external midi device when using the MPC as your sequencer?

I'd never really paid this much attention until recently when trying to use my MPC with newer external keyboards and midi modules with WAAY more than 128 patches in them. Anyway to send LSB/MSB bank changes from the MPC so that the correct patches can be called up later when reloading a sequence saved from disk? Any workarounds?

I've not had much luck on this subject when searching so I thought maybe I should just post the question.

Thanks in Advance,
Tim
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By Something Like That Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:35 pm
good question.

Too bad I'm not experienced enough to help you but I'm also looking forward to the answer as I'm encountering the same prob.
By mpc3000le Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:22 am
tvent wrote:Hi all,
Is there a way to address more than 128 different programs (patches) on an external midi device when using the MPC as your sequencer?

I'd never really paid this much attention until recently when trying to use my MPC with newer external keyboards and midi modules with WAAY more than 128 patches in them. Anyway to send LSB/MSB bank changes from the MPC so that the correct patches can be called up later when reloading a sequence saved from disk? Any workarounds?

I've not had much luck on this subject when searching so I thought maybe I should just post the question.

Thanks in Advance,
Tim


You'll need to address this type of patch selection via the MPC3000/MPC60 step editor and not the MAIN SCREEN PGM selector.

When in the MPC3000/MPC60 step editor; insert MIDI CONTROL CHANGE, BANK LSB, BANK MSB, NRPN, RPN messages and subsequent PROGRAM CHANGE commands as required per the "MIDI IMPLEMENTATION" documentation that comes with your respective synthesizer.

A well written example of this concept for some Roland machines can be found here:

http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tutr/bank.htm

Not "MPC" specific but context relevant for bank select message implementation within the step editor.

You have a bit of reading to do.

Good luck.

Rohan.
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By tvent Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:02 pm
Thanks for the advice, explanation, and thorough link.

It's a bit of a hassle, but will certainly beat manually trying to guess what patch was used months or years ago when trying to reload sequences in the future.

In practice with this, I've found that if I send much data at once I lose notes (like it is running out of polyphony.) I've gone in and spread the data around in the sequence and it seems to cure that, but it is quite a bit of arrowing and scrolling around.

I wonder if there is an easier workaround, maybe I'll experiment with saving a separate sequence with a sysex dump of all the patches and store it on the same disk, similar name, etc.

Your update doesn't address any of this by chance?

Thanks again,
Tim

By mpc3000le Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:01 am
tvent wrote:Thanks for the advice, explanation, and thorough link.


No problem.

tvent wrote:It's a bit of a hassle, but will certainly beat manually trying to guess what patch was used months or years ago when trying to reload sequences in the future.


This is the good old fashioned method that you would have used in the earlier days of computer based MIDI sequencing. ( think ATARI and software packages around the time when MIDI sound modules didn't have an accepted scheme for bank changing )

tvent wrote:In practice with this, I've found that if I send much data at once I lose notes (like it is running out of polyphony.) I've gone in and spread the data around in the sequence and it seems to cure that, but it is quite a bit of arrowing and scrolling around.


If you're sending BANK/PGM messages for the purpose of setting up a song then simply place a pickup/anacrusis sequence before the main sequences containing note data.

If you're trying to do this while note data is being played then you'll have to re-think how you're setting up patches on your sound module.

You'll also; need to place the BANK/PGM MIDI events "in between" any running [NOTE-ON/NOTE-OFF] messages.

[NOTE-ON/NOTE-OFF] [NOTE-ON/NOTE-OFF] [BANK-SELECT STUFF][NOTE-ON/NOTE-OFF] [NOTE-ON/NOTE-OFF]

( in a section of the song that will be favorable enough for non interruption of any playing note messages ).

Maybe place the non MIDI note events on a separate MIDI track within the MPC3000 sequencer and shift the track manually to hear the effect.

Bare in mind that most sound modules do not change patches instantly when requested via MIDI.

They lag somewhat.

This lag should be taken into account when initializing a MIDI BANK/PGM change otherwise staggered or missing notes will ensue at the change point.

tvent wrote:I wonder if there is an easier workaround, maybe I'll experiment with saving a separate sequence with a sysex dump of all the patches and store it on the same disk, similar name, etc.


Full patch SYSEX dumps for sound re-loading would need to be performed in the pickup/anacrusis sequence mentioned before. Or in between songs.

tvent wrote:Your update doesn't address any of this by chance?


At this stage. No.

Adding a BANK selector to the existing MAIN SCREEN program selector is not out of the question.

Where to put it on the MAIN SCREEN is more the issue.

tvent wrote:Thanks again,
Tim


Rohan.
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By Something Like That Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:32 am
good info.

Thanks Rohan.
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By tvent Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:50 am
Ah, you are stretching my musical vocabulary :) I had to go back and look up anacrusis. Had you said, "that mostly empty sequence you create when you want to start a song on the upbeat but still maintain the integrity of your bar/beat/measure count throughout the rest of your song," then I would have known EXACTLY what you were talking about :) Now I know a new word, Thanks!
Yes, that is what I had in mind with the SYSEX dumps, although I was NOT looking forward to going to each synth and dumping SYSEX data into the MPC to preserve the patch changes - but was considering it if need be.

(Although new to this board I am an old MPC user that thought my MPC had rendered itself obsolete at the advent of the "affordable" computer workstation and sold my MPC3000 while I could still fetch what I thought was a decent price for it (circa 1997-98.) Hindsight would later prove to be 20/20. Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same, anywho I decided to jump off the computer and get another MPC. For the past couple years I had been trying to nurse a MkI 60 back to health and even bought a 1k during the process (long story) and finally acquired a floppy disk drive that would work (through some tips posted on this board, BTW) but still no SCSI and no OS update - then later last year I acquired a 3k and dug out my old SCSI drives and hooked them up and have had the darnedest time going through old sequences trying to figure out what synth was plugged in to what midi out port, etc (one thing the MPC lacks when compared to a computer-based sequencer is a place to save txt notes about setup, etc. ;)
Fortunately MOST of the synths were older and didn't have multiple banks - so it was just a matter of plugging and unplugging until it sounded close to what I remembered and before long I was happily chugging away listening to 9 - 14 year old sequences. Of course a few days later my SCSI drive broke! (what luck) but that is another story. Anywho, I am back into rediscovering my old workflow and am happy to find a way to do the bank changes so I can preserve the data in regards to new sequences (or now old ones) using newer midi modules

Ok, back on topic:
I have gotten better over the past day or two at placing the MSB/LSB/PGMCHANGE messages creatively around the sequence so I was thinking I might could get by without the anacrusis and the SYSEX dumps.
Granted, with the way I was placing the data all across the sequence I could see a day when it would be a bit embarrassing while playing through the sequence with onlookers (onlisteners?) around until the bank change messages came up, but once that happened everything would be fine and that certainly beats trying to skirmish through the patch select wheels of your synths manually trying to find the right patch :oops: and so I was happy (or so I thought.)
But wait, there's more: Whilst experimenting with this newfound bank select function thanks to my new best friend Rohan, the thought occurred to me that I might be going about this wrong. I was inserting the C0 MSB and C32 LSB messages, and then ALSO inserting a program change message into the sequence. I was running out of places to put all this information without sacrificing a note here or there. I don't know where it came from but all of a sudden I thought, why can't I still make use of the Pgm function on the main screen. Now that I say that I think that thought occurred to me while reading Rohan's response about finding room on the main screen for the bank select function in a potential update. So in an attempt to save some midi bandwidth, I went back into step mode and adjusted everything accordingly with all the C0 MSB and C32 LSB messages occuring on the first bar/beat of the sequence with the program change (patch #) now set on the main screen.
It is worth noting that at first this didn't seem to work, but then I remembered from my olden days that the MPC doesn't send the pgm change listed on the main screen with each loop of the sequence, only when changing between sequences. With that I now have a way to preserve all the data related to patch changes and there are NO dropped notes (which at the end/start of a sequenced loop point sound like the timing has just gotten sloppy, FWIW.) Now, as more complex sequences are built this may prove to be inadequate, but for now I am ELATED!


Thanks again as this was JUST what I was looking for, although as inspiration I for one WOULD LOVE to see this implemented on the main screen in a future OS update!
Looks like I'm going to be needing to buy it sooner or later anyway and this would probably expedite the money from my pocket into yours (if that matters) (I also know now I would buy it for the 60 at once too so feel free to develop it for that as well!)

As far as where to put it on the main screen, I can't speak for everyone but I would be more than happy to give up the Vel%:XXX that is just to the left of the Pgm section on the main screen. You may be able to abreviate "Pgm" to "Pg" and "MSB" to "MB" and "LSB" to "LB" to fit more in? Maybe it could be a system selectable option so anyone who finds the Velocity setting on the main screen more useful than the ability to select multiple banks on external midi modules could choose to leave it intact? You might could even gain a few characters worth of space by reducing the amount of space allowed for the midi channel and secondary midi assignment (with 99 tracks per sequence I haven't run into a situation yet that I HAVE to have two different midi channels assigned to a single track, but I am sure that is just a difference of workflow and someone else may find it quite useful for stacking patches and the like.

I am just overwhelmed with joy! My tracks may still ultimately suck, but I sure am more happy about 'em now that I can recall them at the spin of my data entry dial! :D

(whew! sorry to get so long winded there, guess I got excited - well, Thanks again!)
By olivr Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:25 pm
Hey. Is there a way to scroll through banks of presets on an external synth from the MPC 3000 ?

Precisely, is it possible to send a MIDI Bank change message from the MPC (without having to dial it in from the step edit menu) ?

In midi DRUM mode PGM is limited to 128 presets / 1 bank only.

I'm trying to setup an E-mu Orbit so that i don't need to rack it next to the MPC. It's the same as MoPhatt, Proteus, Carnaval.

Any workaround appreciated.

Cheers :worthy: