Sampler shootout SP12 vs Emax vs S950 vs S1000 vs S1100 ...

jibber wrote:
I have tracks that i did with only the 2KXL, some of them i am really happy with how they sound, so i guess this is true. It's just that in direct comparison, it sounded so thin and lifeless, it was a real eye-opener for me... it's a drastic difference IMO.

It is drastic, and these shootouts don't tell the whole story at all, because when you sample more and more sounds, the character of the sampler starts to really show.

yeah I think you are right (great shootout by the way) but I was thinking... once you have a sample, a bass bit, the drums, and the whole nine... then you have something sequenced coming out the box.. it sounds different. I have the 8 outs in the 2k classic, and obviously in the 60 as well... but I tend to prefer the stereo outs better for some reason... maybe it passes through some magic volume pot or something hahahaha...

I do like stereo samples, but on the 2k, on samples that seem to matter (samples for the lead, or the cymbals and snares etc) I find myself using the eb16 for filters or what not.... and we know what that fx card does to stereo samples.

also, in the 60, yes it is mono... but I often use the mono out for the fx send/return which has stereo input.. so mono out to the fx unit and we have some sort of stereo signal coming back in.. depending on the effect.

So all that combined with the build in mixer for panning... mono starts sounding really good.

Also, I was impartial to the 2000XL sound... no complaints.. not much glory to write home about... maybe I was just not working the samples enough at the time... but since then I wound up with a 2000 classic, and I have a great time with the way that machine sounds.. but I dont know that it's really a "this vs that" situation.. since I wasn't doing the same songs on both machines... but maybe I am just working the samples in a different way or something. I find I get beautiful results from the classic, and something has me thinking the sound of the classic is better than the xl... I dont have any solid evidence, or any explanation... it's just a hunch.

mr_debauch wrote:I wound up with a 2000 classic, and I have a great time with the way that machine sounds..

+1

mr_debauch wrote:I have the 8 outs in the 2k classic, and obviously in the 60 as well... but I tend to prefer the stereo outs better for some reason... maybe it passes through some magic volume pot or something hahahaha...

I also have the 8 outs on my 2kxl... also ever liked to use them, I read detailed info on this before, can't remember the specifics, but basically the 8 outs are not the same high quality as the stereo ones, certain components are shared across all/most of the outs, which compromises the sound.

mr_debauch wrote:something has me thinking the sound of the classic is better than the xl... I dont have any solid evidence, or any explanation... it's just a hunch.

I've heard others say this, would not surprise me at all if akai cut some corners on the xl that affects sound quality.. who knows, maybe the classic used higher end op amps or something like that.

^^ could be, I can say though... the difference isn't big and I wouldn't really even mention that to someone deciding between the two models...

also, I wonder about the 8 outs sharing parts because I read something where hellfire mentioned in his 2500 (yeah I know, different model.. but still) that with the 8 outs he experiences bleeding channels or something.. not sure if he fixed it though or determined it could be some sort of procedure he overlooked or what not..

Found the info here on the 2k 8 outs:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/709923-post21.html

And a description of multiplexing in the sp, which applies to the above also:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6774401-post21.html

Didn't know what multiplexing meant in this context myself, learned something new.

Every sampler has some kind of sound to it, I find it hard to put sound differences into words, but the 4k lacks bass, and definition.. brittle sound, older akais where fatter.
The 4k is smd, this alone makes quite a difference, old through hole resistors/transistors where of a higher quality.. maybe more noise, but kinder on the ears, chunkier/realer sound.

Older gear had fatter circuit board traces.. all these little things make a difference.

It's like the difference between old analog synths and new ones..
Or another analogy, photo cameras... in that realm the best was made back in the 60s.. and those cameras still kick modern +20megapixel dslrs asses..

Commercialism/monetary-ism kills everything, camera tech went downhill since the 60s, or put it this way, cost cutting started to come into play.. suits take over.. lets increase the profit margins at the expense of quality. and to make devices redundant faster.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

I will agree with everything you posted .... but I´m a little skeptic on your opinions on the 4k vs older samplers, see the 4k sound great at 24bits very clear and detailed the convertors are allegedly superior to former modern MPC´s,... so I´m assuming your talking about S1100 and below ... I know for the big players its all about profits but it seams like the old Akai where trying to make a stand with their last MPC the 4k.. they didn´t seams to cut many corners, they produced the 4k with full throttle ..

there was an online blind test between the 3 vs 4k and votes where just random but if I remember correctly it tilted towards to the 4k sounding better, I dont know the sampling rate,.. but when people post things like there´s a big difference in sound 2k vs Xl vs 1k ect I don´t bother getting into it cos in the real world the difference is so minor it doesn´t matter...

but

I laugh when I hear people say the mpc4000 sounds amazing.. it's 24bit.. so that must mean it sounds better than anything 16/12/8bit... sure thing
The 16it S1100 from the late 80s kills the 4k sound in every way, actually the ad/da's on many older samplers sound better than the most highend soundcards/interfaces of today.

Kills it? .. again I´m not sure I want to get into this, but I´d love have more info on this ... as it seams like it doesn´t matter what studio I´m in the 4k always delivers, it has pristine sound quality and can outdo all my fetishes for other samplers when combined with outboard.. but I admit I´ve never heard a s1000 in person , hence the curiosity

@glide, you know what I'll do a mpc4k vs s1100 shootout tomorrow, the you'll hear what I'm talking about

I am a fan of the mpc4k for what it's worth, just have gotten used to the nicer sound quality of my other samplers.. But take into account people have different taste.

However, regarding just the specs, a few short notes:

The 1000/1100 both had a custom chip dedicated just to interpolation, I think it's mentioned in the manual, plus more info here (search 1100):

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/a ... cience.htm

...So not only did they have dedicated hw for this task, but it was also "eight-point windowed sinc interpolation" ... which according to the article Akai replaced with a much simpler alternative in later samplers.. I've done multisampling comparisions... and it is a night and day difference, although it's not just due to the interpolation differences.


The 1100 cost something like 8-10,000 dollars fully expanded back in the late 80s..

So even though akai did try to make a flagship mpc with the 4k.. there is still only so much you can do, when the music industry has changed in such a way that there are no longer that many big earners able/willing to spend crazy money on samplers that cut very few corners..

Plus software samplers where already in fashion at the time, I remember hearing all the time 'hardware samplers are dead' ... before the 4k..

Also as mentioned ... planned obsolesce is designed into all modern gear.
Back in the 80s it was not as bad as now, but even so, look at how akai didn't fix certain OS quirks in the S1000/1100 ... so they could release the S3000/S3200 to continue SELLING gear.. Does this sort of scenario sound familiar?

People plan this shit very carefully... ooh lets add feature x, that many people have requested... but lets omit something that will likely really piss lots of people off that we will save for the next piece of gear... and in that one... feature x will be taken out that people where so fond of so that... the next updated machine can be sold.

The infinite loop of capitalism/waste/greed. I love this system, and the indoctrinated masses that sustain it


Apologies for the rant, I'll get you some audio tomorrow!

szr that was no rant ... just an excellent reply, looking forward to your examples!!

Thanks, didn't get the shootout done yet, but I'll share these first:

(AD shootout.. new 24bit audio interface VS 16bit S1100)

Arrangements are slightly different, as they where done live, but other than that, same thing, 1100 audio was transferred via compact flash to the PC.. to avoid DA audio interface colouring.

Audio came from various gear, routed into mixer.. mixer output into ua25ex / S1100






Vocal though the S1100, with filter tweaking, only effect used is the built in 1100 delay ....[ I think the mpc4k filter/fx will have a problem sounding this good.
..But I won't be able to compare fx in the shootout, as my card is dead in the mp4k.. But maybe I'll compare filters.]

The S1100 sounds nice! I'm listening at the office on logitech pc speakers, but there's some audible difference even like this (not huge, but i can hear it).

to my ears the 4k sounded the most like the original - most accurate...alot of people are sticking their hands up for some of the other samplers becuase they are bassier - but wait hang on turn the base up in the EQ and wow it sounds better...so what I'm saying is that the bass boost is not really a factor in making my assessment as that can be done at a later point in the production chain using EQ. I think the thing to be listening for is wether the digital grain is pleasing or not. I like the SP12 grain.

grassroots wrote:to my ears the 4k sounded the most like the original - most accurate...alot of people are sticking their hands up for some of the other samplers becuase they are bassier - but wait hang on turn the base up in the EQ and wow it sounds better...so what I'm saying is that the bass boost is not really a factor in making my assessment as that can be done at a later point in the production chain using EQ. I think the thing to be listening for is wether the digital grain is pleasing or not. I like the SP12 grain.

Thats not true. For example: s950 boosts the high frequencies (3000Hz and higher) and lower the sub frequencies (lower than 60Hz). MPC2000 does the same in the lows but not as extreme as the 950 and it also doesn't boost the highs but lower them a little bit.

peace

thanks for your reply - above 20k and below 60 are beyond my range of hearing so I had no idea....

grassroots wrote:thanks for your reply - above 20k and below 60 are beyond my range of hearing so I had no idea....

Really? you cant hear the typical 50Hz Boom? On the high end tho I bet you won't even hear 20k except you are relative young and got very good ears. Most people can't really hear in the 20k range. But to be honest, I dont know where you got the 20K from. I wrote about 60Hz and 3kHz in my last post.

peace