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By NearTao Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:32 pm
These notes are all for SP 404 mk2 firmware 1.13.

Bugs
* In pattern mode there is a slight gap between the end of a pattern and the start back to 1.1.1.
* In pattern mode edit, you cannot adjust the start position of the pattern, only the end position.
* Exported samples do not contain the project they were from, just named “<bank 1-10> <pad> <sample name> Sample”. The bank should be a-j to match naming, it should include the project, and there ought to be a way to name the sample.
* Exporting samples will overwrite whatever you have on the SD card without warning you that there is already a sample there.

Issues
* The pattern mode gap bug makes it difficult to sample a perfect loop with either resampling, or skip back. The best option I have found is to double the length of the pattern and then resample or use skip back to work on the first half.
* You cannot record samples while playing a pattern. As soon as you hit REC it wants to record into the pattern regardless of which screen you are in.
* I have not be able to figure out how to exit pattern record mode without stopping everything, which forces you to hard stop whatever you have playing.
* When you are in pattern record mode you cannot enable bus FX.
* EFX are a pain to edit, and require a bit of menu diving, there are only sixteen favorites that you need to menu dive to edit, and bypass. I’m not sure why these aren’t part of the Bus FX to move around/through, but it is annoying.
* Probably a setting someplace, but every time I resample the sample gets quieter and requires a normalize to bring it back up to level.
* Once you resample your Bus FX are disabled, would be nice if there were a setting for the new sample to just not be routed through Bus FX instead of disabling the Bus FX.
* There is no way that I have found to change quantization on a pattern once you have recorded it… you need to rerecord it which is annoying.
* There is no Redo after undoing a pattern note entry.
* Chromatic does not work in pattern mode, forcing you to resample or use skip back to record a single note used chromatically.
* Chromatic mode does not support custom scales, so you’ll need to know which pads are for your scale and which ones not to use.
* Chromatic mode cannot be customized to play the notes that you want.
* Start/End does well, but could use a snap to 0. For the moment I have been using Envelope with a attack of 1 and/or release of 1 to hide the pops and clicks as appropriate.
* Personally think this is a bug, but GATE does not honor a release setting, so you cannot have a gated note have a nice subtle tail. This implementation may be intentional, but I think it is wrong.
* The controls on the FX are rather inconsistent, which I’m mostly okay with, but a fair number of them do not have Dry/Wet independent controls… so for example, you do not have a Reverb that can have a 100% wet, and 0% dry setting. For Reverb, you just get level to control the amount of reverb, but no way to reduce the level of the dry signal… boo.

Concerns
* The Value knob gets used *a lot*, not sure how long it will last. Hopefully a long time.
* You only get 10 mute groups per project. I suspect that this will make things a bit more confusing if you are planning on using all of the banks, and don’t take good notes. I’d prefer to see 16 mute groups, as having one per pad bank and a few spare would be super helpful. Just remember to take notes on what is what folks.
* I’d like to see under record settings for resampling a way to create a perfect loop. You can kind of wing this with pattern mode and just recording a longer sample and then retriggering the resampled sample in the pattern, but I think there’s a great opportunity here for making this a mini looper that doesn’t quite have a workflow it would need to do it. Or I need to think outside of the box more.
* It would be nice if you could set the velocity for FIXED VELOCITY, instead of it always being max… I know you can use 16 VELOCITY… but then you’re bouncing between samples… so meh.
* Probably a setting for this already I need to dive into… but I’m finding resampling is always quieter than what I was playing, so I then need to normalize the sample again to get it back to the level that I want. This might be the setting under GAIN Noise Gate (which is -12db for now)… need to experiment.
* Remain button doesn’t show you any information about the battery when powered… what’s the voltage left, time left, anything?
* Chop exporting samples to pads… I haven’t figured out to only export the chops that I want yet and ignore whatever else is there that I do not want. It may be able to do this, but it definitely seems fiddly.
* No way to convert a sample from stereo to mono that I have found. Would be nice to be able to do this.

Oddities
* It is just strange that there are 3 FX that are only present on INPUT SETTINGS. Auto Pitch, Vocoder, and Guitar Amp Sim are only available as INPUT FX Settings. I could definitely see uses for them in the rest of the MFX, and my guess is they will show up there eventually.
* The online only manual sucks… why is there no freaking PDF? Change my mind.

Feature Requests
* Add in the three INPUT FX into the other MFX… please.
* Have GATE use the ENVELOPE release setting to trail off the sample if the release is anything other than 0.
* Would love to have an FX to cancel center channel or only keep center channel.
* A way to name samples, even if you have to use the VALUE knob would be super handy… I’m old school and don’t mind doing the three letter GTR, PNO, BAS, shorts… and being able to add in note names into the sample would be helpful. Heck… if it even output the assigned sample and BPM value in the name when you exported… *chef’s kiss*.
By mothfuzz Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:56 pm
One other thing I've noticed that I'd consider an issue (or at least a downgrade) is that if I set the tempo while recording a sample or while hitting the mark on the 404(sx/a), it'll automatically set the end point to the nearest beat according to the BPM.
It's a great way to make seamless loops without having to do weird shit like add an extra beat or be ninja with your timing.

The mk2 has no such feature, and the sample editor can't align to beats nor bpm, it's totally freeform.
How are y'all getting your loops straight on the mk2?
By Straker Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:43 pm
NearTao wrote:These notes are all for SP 404 mk2 firmware 1.13.

Bugs
* In pattern mode there is a slight gap between the end of a pattern and the start back to 1.1.1.
* In pattern mode edit, you cannot adjust the start position of the pattern, only the end position.
* Exported samples do not contain the project they were from, just named “<bank 1-10> <pad> <sample name> Sample”. The bank should be a-j to match naming, it should include the project, and there ought to be a way to name the sample.
* Exporting samples will overwrite whatever you have on the SD card without warning you that there is already a sample there.

Issues
* The pattern mode gap bug makes it difficult to sample a perfect loop with either resampling, or skip back. The best option I have found is to double the length of the pattern and then resample or use skip back to work on the first half.
* You cannot record samples while playing a pattern. As soon as you hit REC it wants to record into the pattern regardless of which screen you are in.
* I have not be able to figure out how to exit pattern record mode without stopping everything, which forces you to hard stop whatever you have playing.
* When you are in pattern record mode you cannot enable bus FX.
* EFX are a pain to edit, and require a bit of menu diving, there are only sixteen favorites that you need to menu dive to edit, and bypass. I’m not sure why these aren’t part of the Bus FX to move around/through, but it is annoying.
* Probably a setting someplace, but every time I resample the sample gets quieter and requires a normalize to bring it back up to level.
* Once you resample your Bus FX are disabled, would be nice if there were a setting for the new sample to just not be routed through Bus FX instead of disabling the Bus FX.
* There is no way that I have found to change quantization on a pattern once you have recorded it… you need to rerecord it which is annoying.
* There is no Redo after undoing a pattern note entry.
* Chromatic does not work in pattern mode, forcing you to resample or use skip back to record a single note used chromatically.
* Chromatic mode does not support custom scales, so you’ll need to know which pads are for your scale and which ones not to use.
* Chromatic mode cannot be customized to play the notes that you want.
* Start/End does well, but could use a snap to 0. For the moment I have been using Envelope with a attack of 1 and/or release of 1 to hide the pops and clicks as appropriate.
* Personally think this is a bug, but GATE does not honor a release setting, so you cannot have a gated note have a nice subtle tail. This implementation may be intentional, but I think it is wrong.
* The controls on the FX are rather inconsistent, which I’m mostly okay with, but a fair number of them do not have Dry/Wet independent controls… so for example, you do not have a Reverb that can have a 100% wet, and 0% dry setting. For Reverb, you just get level to control the amount of reverb, but no way to reduce the level of the dry signal… boo.

Concerns
* The Value knob gets used *a lot*, not sure how long it will last. Hopefully a long time.
* You only get 10 mute groups per project. I suspect that this will make things a bit more confusing if you are planning on using all of the banks, and don’t take good notes. I’d prefer to see 16 mute groups, as having one per pad bank and a few spare would be super helpful. Just remember to take notes on what is what folks.
* I’d like to see under record settings for resampling a way to create a perfect loop. You can kind of wing this with pattern mode and just recording a longer sample and then retriggering the resampled sample in the pattern, but I think there’s a great opportunity here for making this a mini looper that doesn’t quite have a workflow it would need to do it. Or I need to think outside of the box more.
* It would be nice if you could set the velocity for FIXED VELOCITY, instead of it always being max… I know you can use 16 VELOCITY… but then you’re bouncing between samples… so meh.
* Probably a setting for this already I need to dive into… but I’m finding resampling is always quieter than what I was playing, so I then need to normalize the sample again to get it back to the level that I want. This might be the setting under GAIN Noise Gate (which is -12db for now)… need to experiment.
* Remain button doesn’t show you any information about the battery when powered… what’s the voltage left, time left, anything?
* Chop exporting samples to pads… I haven’t figured out to only export the chops that I want yet and ignore whatever else is there that I do not want. It may be able to do this, but it definitely seems fiddly.
* No way to convert a sample from stereo to mono that I have found. Would be nice to be able to do this.

Oddities
* It is just strange that there are 3 FX that are only present on INPUT SETTINGS. Auto Pitch, Vocoder, and Guitar Amp Sim are only available as INPUT FX Settings. I could definitely see uses for them in the rest of the MFX, and my guess is they will show up there eventually.
* The online only manual sucks… why is there no freaking PDF? Change my mind.

Feature Requests
* Add in the three INPUT FX into the other MFX… please.
* Have GATE use the ENVELOPE release setting to trail off the sample if the release is anything other than 0.
* Would love to have an FX to cancel center channel or only keep center channel.
* A way to name samples, even if you have to use the VALUE knob would be super handy… I’m old school and don’t mind doing the three letter GTR, PNO, BAS, shorts… and being able to add in note names into the sample would be helpful. Heck… if it even output the assigned sample and BPM value in the name when you exported… *chef’s kiss*.

Boss/Roland manuals always suck.
As support from Boss/Roland sucks.
The parameter guide can help a bit, usually you can download it from Roland site.
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By Ill-Green Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:21 pm
I'm not the type to haul around audio files or sample paks. I power up, sample, create and then delete everything and start clean again next session. My loops and one shots are created as I go, so I can't really tell anyone how loops are stored.

I will say, the gap in Pattern recording, can be edited out or you can resample it and perfect loop it by trimming the points.

Also, I'm getting close to uploading images. Managed to get something on my screen but I think its user-error. I used a black background but its not a cgi black background, more of a camera taking a photo in a dark closet without flash kind of black background. Will try to import some images to MS Paint and create the black background there. Tricky thing is importing the images, you have to find the file in your Export folder, and then hit Roll to set it to import to get the images from the card. Would be easier to access the "Import From SD Card" to import stuff but its still buggy in that regards.

Good news, is that Near Tao's observation is making rounds around the net and lots of people are writing Roland to fix the bugs, from reddit to sp-forums :mrgreen:
By ace_of_dub Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:41 pm
Just heard it is not possible to use the sample chromatic mode playback during sequencing. My hype for the SP404MKII just died down...
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By NearTao Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:40 am
Weird that my post is making any rounds... but I haven't been following the sub reddit or sp-forums... spending too much time on the mk2 lately I guess.

Could not for the life of me get an account on SP Forums lol... even wrote the admin... but the dang email to authentic just never shows up *shrug*.

More Thoughts on the mk2...
* Recording samples feels a bit clunky... it just felt faster on the older SPs. Trimming/chopping is clearly faster on the mk2, but I just feel like recording and getting it on to the pad is taking longer. This could just be me though.
* I'd really love a Threshold in the record edit so that recording to a pad would start (or be assigned to start) on an incoming signal. Again, setting start/end is faster on on the mk2, but this feels like it could be streamlined a bit.
* This is fun... recording samples records through bus fx and efx... I'm fine with bus fx, but efx is lame because it doesn't turn off after a record/resample... and gives you gifts such as double compression or other double stacked fx from your efx chain. I'd suggest an option to record under edit to record pre bus fx/post bus fx/post efx. Anyway... I know how to avoid that sucking compression sound... but just wasn't expecting it and took a few tries to find where it was coming from since you know... you have to go someplace else to find/change your EFX.
* Recording samples with metronome and count in feels lame, it is fine that it is there, but as far as I can tell there is no visual feedback on the record page to let you know what it is going to do. This can make recording samples feel clunkier than it should.
* Metronome and count in feels like it has inconsistent behavior, but perhaps there is one setting for pattern mode and one for record mode. I just feel like I'm adjusting both metronome and count in frequently, and suspect I'm fighting with myself without knowing it.
* Exporting samples is cool by me, but exporting a project is weird. Instead of getting regular files you can work with now you've got .smp for samples and .bin for patterns. Would've been cool to see .wav files and maybe even midi files. I mean do whatever works natively for the device I guess... but could've had something a bit more user friendly. I guess to me if it isn't intended to be user accessible just dump it as a single file?
* I could probably check... but REMAIN used to do some useful stuff on older SPs like tell your remaining sample time and battery life... but this is not the case on the mk2.
* REMAIN doesn't tell you squat about a pattern... seems like there'd be things I'd like to know about a pattern. Length, quantize settings, etc…
* I'd love to be able to name or tag a pattern stuff like intro/drop/bridge/chorus/instrumental... anything!
* REMAIN tells me plenty about a pad/sample, but I don't seem to be able to edit or change much of it.
* REMAIN - Sample Name - *please* let me edit this... please
* REMAIN - Sample Stereo/Mono - Uhm... neat, but it brings up where is the START/END or CHOP or whatever function off of the value knob to convert stereo to L, R, or merged mono.
* REMAIN Original BPM... probably a bad name, but I know what you're getting at... but let us change it because this is going to get confusing as heck if I sample a one shot or something that runs at a different BPM from my pattern BPM due to length, but isn’t really that BPM… perhaps I am over thinking it
* REMAIN Vinyl - Yes/No... I think you edit this under PITCH/SPEED, but I'm not quite sure what it means or is trying to tell me… maybe I’ll try and search the manual again.

Stuff I’d like to see added to the mk2…
* color coded pads by selection, so I can make my kicks one color, snares another, melody… whatever… this is a nice feature on the MPC line and makes it quicker to understand a drum kit
* labels/tags for sample type… or color… but maybe something where you assign a tag of kick/snare/hat/cymbal/instrument/loop/synth/bass/… and it colors for you?
* color code by routing is handy for a quick view of what is going on, I actually think this leads into… expose pad colors for other settings… mono/stereo, vinyl on/off, bpm match, bpm sync on/off, gate/one shot, loop on/off, etc… honestly, a shortcut like SHIFT GATE and it shows you the pad settings for GATE ON/OFF for all pads in the bank… super handy
* REMAIN for root note? It can be nice to know what note a sample was recorded where applicable… and could lead to some super fancy things with chromatic and scales
* new filters - sample rate reducer, looper w/ overdub and export to pad, aural exciter, granulator, half speed, infinite sustain reverb, radio (like back on the 303), , reverse reverb, reverse delay, harmonic delay, classic lpf emulators (ms-20, Moog ladder, Juno, and on and on), harmonic (sub, 5ths, 7ths, etc…), dj scratch, vocal cut, ducking bus, mod/demodulator, limiter, comb filter
* Give me some halfway synth and sound kind of generation stuff… I am sure people would love sound design in here, heck put them as FX… you can chain up to 4 and could kind of sort of do synths… even if you could only adjust pitch with the knobs, recording/resampling could lead to some really cool experimentation… noise (vinyl, radio, tape, white, pink, tv static), tone generator, wave table, fm osc from routed audio, karplus strong… I don’t even need this mapped to pads… just drop it into a bus effect… put a filter on the second bus… and you can instantly start making your own one shots
* input fx… physical model, exciter… just some fun stuff that you can trigger with the mic or guitar to excite some kind of simple synth kind of stuff.
* ability to play multiple simultaneous patterns… probably dreaming… but it’d be neat to be able to have a drum track, bass track, instrument track, vocal track… and mute/unmute them… though I know this isn’t really the SP way.
* legato pattern playing… let me switch up patterns in the middle, not just start/end of the pattern boundaries
* chromatic mode glide/pitch bend… oh man… would love this.
* low pass/high pass filter per pad… I cannot imagine this takes much processing power, but no idea how much headroom is available either… but just a taste… it’d help so much
* envelope to velocity, filter, pitch… one envelope, even if it can only do one of velocity, filter, or pitch… just opens so many options…
* chromatic arp… it can still just do a single note… but being able to skip back or resample, so dang handy to just get stuff going quickly…
* shift volume to adjust cue separate from main outputs… might already be there… but just came to mind that you might want to adjust volumes separately
* usb storage access, I can imagine this being a giant pain, and I suspect the current implementation is to unmount the sd card as quickly as possible… and having a computer mount internal storage is probably asking for corruption issues… but still… the audio and midi works so dang well… I can dream
* sub pad for sd card streaming… recording direct to sd… unique id per bank… just think about it… it feels a bit awkward to not have any kind of streaming to sd, but sometimes I want to write out patterns to a song, and maybe don’t want to use a pad and then export… could help streamline the process by just going straight to sd?
* trigger notes on pattern bar, 1/4, 1/8… I know… you can technically do this by just recording the pattern and then quantizing and trying until you get it right, but for loops, might be handy to be able to quantize them when you want to so that they start on pattern based criteria
* quick erase all pad events from a pattern… I might be doing this wrong, but in PATTERN REC, tap DEL, and then hold down notes to delete them is all I have found so far to erase notes I don’t want, but if I have a 16 bar pattern, this can take a while.
* pad mutes, bank mutes… for performance, this would be sexy…
* accessories… nub mic... something that just goes into the mic/guitar jack and maybe pops out an 1/8" to 1/4" max... stays out of the way, but there when I want it... :D
Last edited by NearTao on Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By NearTao Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:42 am
ace_of_dub wrote:Just heard it is not possible to use the sample chromatic mode playback during sequencing. My hype for the SP404MKII just died down...


yeah, it doesn't have parameter locks like the po-33 or ability to retain pitch information with the note events.

hasn't stopped me yet, but it was something that seemed so obvious for a chromatic mode to have that I didn't even think that chromatic mode wouldn't work with pattern mode.

Thoughts though
* well, they could always add this with a firmware update... not holding my breath, but it could happen
* it is still nice to have, and you can resample or get a play through skip back... not ideal compared to how the MPC does it, but still entirely workable.
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By NearTao Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:17 am
Couple tracks I cooked up on the mk2 for folks that are interested...





Last few posts might make it sound like I am down on the mk2, but definitely not the case, just trying to spread the knowledge of what it is and is not, and get some thoughts out there about what I'd like to see from it. This is definitely not an MPC killer, but it is absolutely a portable sampler, and compared to many devices in this space it mostly blows things out of the water. Where I see most people getting stuck is trying to compare it to an MPC when they really should compare it to the SP line. It's got SP sensibilities, but has cribbed a bit from the MPC and other samplers. So it's not a full fledged sampler, it's not going to replace hard core DAW workflow, and it's not trying to be the centerpiece of anybody's studio. It's an SP through and through, and totally hits on the old school thinking of using whatever you've got on hand to fake it to make it.

I've been through a lot of samplers, boutique synths, and plenty of FX to know what I like and what I don't. Where possible I try not to fit a square peg through a round hole. Where the mk2 shines is definitely in the form factor, it's 1/3 of the MPC LIVE mk2... and it's probably 1/3 the functionality. Yet I will say, many of the FX are punching above the price tag, and plenty of them are workable, even if they might still need some love from Roland to square up a few issues.

The sampling engine is *so* damn much quieter, noise floor lower, and quality of sampling compared to other SPs is night and day. If you liked that dirt from the older SPs, well you can get a bit of it back, but overall this is definitely the cleanest sounding SP. The USB connectivity for audio and midi as I said before is freaking amazing, and is probably the biggest workflow changer... something that Akai ought to take notice of honestly, as the whole standalone/controller paradigm really should shift, but not holding my breath.

For me, this is about the right mix of portability and features for something to take on trips, visit people, and just sketch out track ideas. It's not going to replace any of my gear (well the SP-202 and SP-303 maybe), but it definitely feels like it'll get some work done.

Image
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By Lampdog Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:49 pm
This would be the only SP in the series I'd consider getting, but, I won't. It's a want not a need.
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By NearTao Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:45 am
Probably worth waiting to see what shakes out… with any luck it will have updates and longevity like the MPC line, but not holding my breath just yet
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By Ill-Green Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:52 am
Its a totally different beast but will give lasting satisfaction.

You see, Lamp and Tao, you know how MPCs are sequencers with sampling features; well, SPs are samplers with sequencing features. And that sets the workflow for the both of them. May be for you, maybe not.
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By Ill-Green Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:23 pm
NearTao wrote:How are you getting on with your Ill?


Right now, I'm a kid again. Not as pristine as the DJS-1000, it feels close though and getting there. Only bugs I got were uploading images but now I am beginning to understand the brain under the hood. Not so much in patterns as some pointed out like notes dropping out, I hadn't got that...yet. All I want is for Roland to fix the bugs, there are too many features as is than the average SP, so I like to get into those first, then think about new cool features.

This is definitely the SP I wanted since Roland failed me with the SP303 back in 2000. Actually, the 505 came out first and as featured rich as it was, thats where Roland omitted Pitch/Speed first, and I was disappointed. Couple months later the 303 appeared on the market and Roland advertised it as a DJ sampler that can be mobile for the 505. As in chopping and slicing samples in the 505, then swap out the smartmedia card and insert it into the 303 and you can jam on stage while the 505 stays home. At least that was Roland's original intent. But I bought the 303 too thinking it would have Pitch/Speed...did not. All I wanted was the MS-1 with more RAM, more polyphony and more pads. So thats how my journey with SPs been. I like the SP as is.
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By Ill-Green Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:13 am
Finally got the images working. Had to copy project from export into import and then paste the images in export and import folders. Took me all night, BIG UPS to Nonjuror!!