Live Performance Using an MPC?

i've read that a padkontrol works without a pc, not sure about an mpd. head over to sp-forums.com and check that place out as well if you're thinking of an sp. not sure if everything will work, like mute groups etc. i think i'll try midi-ing up my 2500 and 404 today.

and yeah if you only need one kick drum for example, you only load one.

if you want another one that is pitched up or down, or with a lower or higher velocity, etc, you dont have to render it in DAW and bring it into the mpc. you just assign the same kick drum to another pad and alter it,.... so you only load one instance.

you can do the same with a bass note or whatever else you sample,... eg a bass note,... say you've got 12 notes through out the song that are played,... you could load one, then pitch that one twelve times for 12 different samples, but you've only loaded one.

so 128mb can hold a shitload of samples.

if you're into playing a machine, i'd say get the mpc.

i just remembered watching this video recently, the guy uses all four banks so perhaps this'll put your mind to rest re the memory issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Wh5_YV1Tk

his other videos are pretty interesting to watch as well.

^ yeah the mpd16 for sure works without a pc... it takes a 9 volt adapter to power it... or you could use the USB cable for just the power part of it and still run midi out to the sampler.

also, you could build your own battery power supply with a 9v battery.

brucker wrote:yeah if you only need one kick drum for example, you only load one.

if you want another one that is pitched up or down, or with a lower or higher velocity, etc, you dont have to render it in DAW and bring it into the mpc. you just assign the same kick drum to another pad and alter it,.... so you only load one instance.

you can do the same with a bass note or whatever else you sample,... eg a bass note,... say you've got 12 notes through out the song that are played,... you could load one, then pitch that one twelve times for 12 different samples, but you've only loaded one.

so 128mb can hold a **** of samples.

if you're into playing a machine, i'd say get the mpc.

i just remembered watching this video recently, the guy uses all four banks so perhaps this'll put your mind to rest re the memory issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Wh5_YV1Tk

his other videos are pretty interesting to watch as well.

Right, I see what you mean. Haha, it seems I've gone from thinking I had no options to every option. I don't really know what to do.

I just read on another forum that 128MB is roughly 25 minutes of unique sound, and I figured out there'd be about 1:23 minutes of unique sound in the track I linked to, so that'd be like 5-6% of the overall available space, which means 20 tracks of similar sample length, which is actually quite good. Birdcry is minimal in comparison to some other stuff I'm planning on using with it, but I think I could get maybe 12-15 tracks on it. I read the MPC's responsiveness sort of dips when you reach the higher end of CPU usage.

Ugh, this is pretty annoying. On one hand I'd love the MPC, as it just seems like the better machine, but something I hadn't really considered until now is the extra costs, because if I got it, that's £499, then whatever for the 128MB RAM, then whatever for the hard-drive. £500 is actually my limit, no peripherals or add-ons included. Comparatively, the 404 is cheaper, has loads of cool effects, has no RAM issue at all, and I can just hook up my MPD to it and fashion a poor-man's MPC. I don't think I'd mind hitting buttons to trigger non-percussive samples, just as long as the bits you need to get into a rhythm for, so drumming, I can tap out on the MPD over the other stuff.

I guess a lot of what the price of the MPC goes towards is the sequencer and its general self-sustainability too, and I'm not really even using it for that reason.

Also, side note, but does anybody know if you can side-chain on the MPC or SP-404? It's not of massive importance, but I have one track in particular that makes heavy use of it. I can think up a ghetto work around if they don't (side-chain a silent kick drum in the original export of each WAV sample, and hit the drums in the blank spots while playing live), but it'd be nice to know.

mr_debauch wrote:^ yeah the mpd16 for sure works without a pc... it takes a 9 volt adapter to power it... or you could use the USB cable for just the power part of it and still run midi out to the sampler.

also, you could build your own battery power supply with a 9v battery.

Ah, I'd need a power cable for it then. I don't think it came with one.

I just read on another forum that 128MB is roughly 25 minutes of unique sound, and I figured out there'd be about 1:23 minutes of unique sound in the track I linked to

yeah I think you got how the machine works and uses it's space now.. yeah you are probably right.. it should be around 25 minutes.. and if you are only dealing with something like 1.5 minutes for that one song... that is not that bad (that was the key you needed to figure out) I mean, long gongs and cymbals take up a lot, so to pad sounds.. sound effect related sounds etc... so it all adds up. If you think you figured that math out and 128 is more than enough by your calculations to load up an entire set... I dont think you will be disappointed.

as for storage, well hard drives are cheap.. you would need the mounting kit to set one up inside it... but dont buy akai brand hard drives or ram (the ones they sell specially for the mpc) because they mark up the price since it's specialized.. the ram is basic laptop ram (it's actually a 256 meg chip that goes in it, but only 128 megs are detected) there are threads here related to both ram and hard drives..

Haha, finally, right? Yeah, I think it probably would be enough, especially since we aren't signed or headlining gigs or anything. I'd expect a set to last at most about 20-30 minutes.

I just found a 256MB stick of RAM on Amazon for like £12.50. WTF at Akai and their $160 RRP on their own brand ones. Are the hard-drives just typical laptop ones too? Is there any limit on size with them? I just found a 100GB one for £30.

Aaaah, this just confuses things more. It'd be easy if there was one massive drawback on one side or the other, so this decision was made for me.

well i had a play with the 404 and my 2500, they played well with each other,.... velocity also works nicely so it would just be about reorganizing the midi that's sent out of the mpc as the pads dont really line up on its own. not a big deal.

yes it does start to go wonky when you're full or almost full, its enough to throw you off a bit when playing. it doesnt grind to a halt mind you, but it is annoying.

the ram can be any ram that fits the specs,... there's a thread on here about that and off ebay they can be pretty cheap. its regular pc ram, just a bit old school. it wont be dirt cheap but it will be alot cheaper than akai. one of the percs of picking up a used mpc is that you can easily find one with ram maxed out.

you dont need to install a harddrive either,... 8gb and 16gb cf cards work well, even 32gb but those are a bit pricey. i've got a 16gb, loaded with samples, and still have 5gb of space free for other data. since i dont really sequence either as i got it to play live, there's more room than i need.

can you remap the midi signals coming out of an mpd without a pc? if you can then the sp is the way to go i reckon.

oh one thing about the sp,... even though it can take 32gbs of samples, it can only take 120 unique sounds. so even if, for example, you have 120 kicks, that take up 120mb, you wont be able to load more. so there's alot more planning to do as far as preparations go. you could change sd cards, which are cheaper than chips, if you dont mind. but since you're working with completed songs that may not be a big deal.

on the sp forums a guy wrote a program that will help you assign samples, so that should help organizing your sets. its for the 404sx though not the regular 404.

one disappointing thing about the sp was that the fx only work on one sample at a time. they are nice fx though.

no sidechain, so ghetto workaround required.

brucker wrote:can you remap the midi signals coming out of an mpd without a pc? if you can then the sp is the way to go i reckon.

yes, it is easy to do as well.. essentially the mpd in question (the mpd 16) is sort of like a 16 key keyboard.. except you can choose what ever midi cc number each pad plays (ie: it does not need to be in sequential order.

it's a matter of holding down the "active" button for a few seconds.. then you hold down the pad of which you want to assign to something... while holding that pad down you push "full level" to go up or "16 levels" to go down through the note numbers...

you will start to hear the loaded samples get triggered and you stop at the correct sound.

IE: lets say you have a kick drum loaded on pad 1 in the mpc or other sampler.. lets say for argument sake it's midi note number 45.. well as you hold down pad 1 on the mpd16 and start pushing full level quickly... you stop as soon as you hear the kick drum.. if that doesn't happen you've gone up too high past number 45 so you push 16 levels quickly until you hear the kick drum.. (it works this way because there is no screen or display to tell you exactly what note each pad is set to)

anyways you repeat the process for each pad.. and it will take maybe 3 minutes to do all 32 pads (2 banks of 16) that the mpd16 has...

it remembers this data, so even after months without power it wont loose the setting.

I have mine set that way to the "b bank" of my mpc, or my bank 2 on the mv.. so I dont need to push the bank button on those machines.. and I got 32 physical pads to push right in front of me.

mr_debauch wrote:and I got 32 physical pads to push right in front of me.

oh you bastard!

i might have to get me one of them now

Je Hones wrote:Is there any way to sort of estimate how many tracks I might be able to get into 128MB before I needed to reload?

If you were making techno you could probably play for a whole weekend without needing to reload. Just depends on the music you want to make. If you have a lot of long, evolving pad sounds, it might be better to do those with a synth and just send MIDI to the synth instead of sampling it all. MIDI takes up a trivial amount of space. I don't think 128mb is limiting, for me at least. I still use a yamaha a3000 sampler which loads an hour long set from a floppy disk (1.4mb)

brucker wrote:the ram can be any ram that fits the specs,... there's a thread on here about that and off ebay they can be pretty cheap. its regular pc ram, just a bit old school. it wont be dirt cheap but it will be alot cheaper than akai. one of the percs of picking up a used mpc is that you can easily find one with ram maxed out.

you dont need to install a harddrive either,... 8gb and 16gb cf cards work well, even 32gb but those are a bit pricey. i've got a 16gb, loaded with samples, and still have 5gb of space free for other data. since i dont really sequence either as i got it to play live, there's more room than i need.

oh one thing about the sp,... even though it can take 32gbs of samples, it can only take 120 unique sounds. so even if, for example, you have 120 kicks, that take up 120mb, you wont be able to load more. so there's alot more planning to do as far as preparations go. you could change sd cards, which are cheaper than chips, if you dont mind. but since you're working with completed songs that may not be a big deal.

on the sp forums a guy wrote a program that will help you assign samples, so that should help organizing your sets. its for the 404sx though not the regular 404.

one disappointing thing about the sp was that the fx only work on one sample at a time. they are nice fx though.

no sidechain, so ghetto workaround required.

I was just thinking about buying a used MPC actually. I was browsing eBay and there's a blue one, new, for £285 with the 128MB expansion. There's also a black used one for £240, with the 128MB expansion and an 80GB HDD. I'm considering it, but what are the drawbacks of buying used? I read some stories about the pads breaking after some time etc. Also, what's the difference between the blue and black models? There's a rumour the pads aren't as good on the blue one, or something?

I looked into larger CF cards as well, and they're basically the same price as a 100GB laptop HDD.

Yeah, I just noticed that about the SP in the spec. I downloaded from the Roland site. That's really frustrating. It's worse than the MPC in that sense. It almost makes the fact it can take a 32GB SD card irrelevant, unless you have samples that last like 10 minutes at a time or some such shit. I suppose I could carry around a few SD cards if it isn't a hassle to switch them in and out. The cap on the MPC is still off-putting to me even though it sounds like it would suit my intentions fine. Just to be clear though, would maxing out the 128MB just mean that the MPC can't process any more in that one session, and I can just endure the loading time while it drags more samples from the HDD, or is that it in total, and I'd have to go back to a computer and reload everything?

mr_debauch wrote:

brucker wrote:can you remap the midi signals coming out of an mpd without a pc? if you can then the sp is the way to go i reckon.

yes, it is easy to do as well.. essentially the mpd in question (the mpd 16) is sort of like a 16 key keyboard.. except you can choose what ever midi cc number each pad plays (ie: it does not need to be in sequential order.

it's a matter of holding down the "active" button for a few seconds.. then you hold down the pad of which you want to assign to something... while holding that pad down you push "full level" to go up or "16 levels" to go down through the note numbers...

you will start to hear the loaded samples get triggered and you stop at the correct sound.

IE: lets say you have a kick drum loaded on pad 1 in the mpc or other sampler.. lets say for argument sake it's midi note number 45.. well as you hold down pad 1 on the mpd16 and start pushing full level quickly... you stop as soon as you hear the kick drum.. if that doesn't happen you've gone up too high past number 45 so you push 16 levels quickly until you hear the kick drum.. (it works this way because there is no screen or display to tell you exactly what note each pad is set to)

anyways you repeat the process for each pad.. and it will take maybe 3 minutes to do all 32 pads (2 banks of 16) that the mpd16 has...

it remembers this data, so even after months without power it wont loose the setting.

I have mine set that way to the "b bank" of my mpc, or my bank 2 on the mv.. so I dont need to push the bank button on those machines.. and I got 32 physical pads to push right in front of me.

I e-mailed Roland asking this: "I'm looking to purchase an SP-404SX and I'd like to ask, would there be any way I could setup an Akai MPD16 as a slave device to the 404, and trigger samples drawn from the 404 by hitting the pads on the MPD?" and the dude replied with "The 404SX only has a MIDI IN so you wouldn't be able to trigger from it only to it sorry." To me that sounds like he misinterpreted my question because all other sources seem to point towards the MPD working in the way I described.

innovine wrote:

Je Hones wrote:Is there any way to sort of estimate how many tracks I might be able to get into 128MB before I needed to reload?

If you were making techno you could probably play for a whole weekend without needing to reload. Just depends on the music you want to make. If you have a lot of long, evolving pad sounds, it might be better to do those with a synth and just send MIDI to the synth instead of sampling it all. MIDI takes up a trivial amount of space. I don't think 128mb is limiting, for me at least. I still use a yamaha a3000 sampler which loads an hour long set from a floppy disk (1.4mb)

Yeah, I'm not really making sample based music, I'd just be using the parts I'd written in my DAW as samples for the purpose of representing them live. I do lean towards long pad sounds etc. When you say do those with a synth, do you mean hooked up to a computer (or a separate device) and played via MIDI signals, or a self-contained thing like the Nord?

no wait a second.. I know people use external sequencers for the sp.. I remember this because people said they did not like the sp sequencer so they use their mpc to sequence..

if this is the case (which it will be since it has a midi input) that also means you will be able to use the mpd as an external controller for the sp... it was the wording that screwed up the guy buy saying you wanted the mpd to be a slave to the SP... the reason that confused the guy you talked to is because that actually means something else in the midi world...

if your mpd would be slaved to the sp that would mean the sp is the master ... as in, you would need to be running a cable from the sp midi output to the midi input of the mpd... this is not possible as the guy says the sp does not have a midi out, and we know the mpd not only makes no sounds to slave but it also only has a midi out (you do not connect a midi out to a midi out ever) ...

essentially you would be controlling the sp using the mpd.. which implies the mpd is master. This will work.


your ram question... you will be able to fill that 128 megs of ram with data from your hard drive or cf card... then you could load up different data filling the 128 megs again.. the ram has no dependency (or loyalty to specific samples) on what data is loaded from the hard drive... you load what ever sounds you want. when it's full, it's full... then you power off and load up different stuff.

the midi part with the different synth was brought up because the other synth unit has no effect on the mpc's ram... that is why midi is also very good... midi data takes up basically no ram at all. Those synth sounds are contained or are being generated by the synth... triggering those sounds with the mpc would be like the mpc is like an mpd... you use the pads to play those sounds. also, you can use the mpc to sequence the synth but you likely will not be doing that. Just keep that ability in mind if you get the mpc because that very well be something you will consider doing after owning the mpc for a while..

the thing is, yes right now you have a specific task to do with the mpc.. but after owning it you will for sure be doing more and other things with it as well.


as for the pads issue, when the mpc1000 first came out, akai used a different pad design which proved to be no good... they fail. that was when the blue and red ones came out... then around when they started making the black version, they realized and did a sort of recall (though they dont call it that) and released the proper pad design that actually works as it should.. most black models come with the new pads.. you can actually find out if the specific black mpc was sold with the new design by the serial number... but you will need to look around the forum for that info or make a thread asking... anyways, akai also sold what they call "the pad upgrade" which is the fix to their terrible fault in the original 1000 design... those go for a bit under 200 bucks. If you see a cheap red and blue mpc 1000 chances are the seller does not have that upgrade and even the black cheap one you saw may not have it.

Ohh right, I thought the SP would be the master, seeing as the MPD would be relative to it. If the SP is slaved to the MPD, would I still be able to control the SP from the SP for some things? I'd like to choose what is to be controlled by the MPD if that's possible.

That's cool about the RAM reloading, and the new/old MPCs. I'll make sure it's the right one if I think about buying it. Cheers.

I'm not sure what you mean by the synth/MIDI thing. Would that be some other device? I understand that MIDI is small in size, but I thought MIDI was just a sort of place-holder, or instructions for a signal from a device, VST or DAW etc. Where would those signals come from with this method?

I've not really asked so far, but what do you think I should do, with all things considered, go for an MPC or the SP?

yes, you will still get 100% functionality on the machine the mpd is connected to... it just gives the device an additional set of controls (additional pads in this case) ... like I said with my mpc situation. I use an mpd so I can trigger more pads at once... I still push the mpc's pads as normal.... I just use the mpd so I dont need to switch banks to hit one thing.

lets say bank A has the samples and the drums... well I might have all cymbals and gongs on bank B but I still need to hit those sounds in once in a while right? the thing is, I push gongs and things like that as a sort of break in the song or what ever... so often they will be hit at the beginning of a drum rhythm when my kick is also triggered... so how would I push the kick and quickly push the bank B button followed by hitting the gong all at the same exact second? that is the use for extra pads under your fingertips...

yes, you choose what the mpd will trigger.. ie: you choose what mpc pad each mpd pad will hit... you assign each pad on the mpd 16 manually like i mentioned earlier.

now for the midi part...

midi is a language that is used to communicate the action of pushing a keyboard key or a pad... with the sound(s) the machine makes... it has sounds or synth tones etc... and you pushing a key will send a midi message to the appropriate sound.

essentially, you know your mpd16? well it sends midi data.. you push a pad, and it sends the appropriate midi message (telling what midi note number it is assigned to) on a midi keyboard, you push the c5 key... and it sends the message "the c5 key was pushed.. so play the c5 sound"

now what this boils down to is, you can send that midi message from one device to another.

Je Hones wrote:Ohh right, I thought the SP would be the master, seeing as the MPD would be relative to it. If the SP is slaved to the MPD, would I still be able to control the SP from the SP for some things? I'd like to choose what is to be controlled by the MPD if that's possible.

"Slave/master" doesn't relate to this scenario as it doesn't involve syncing midi clock. Yes, you can still control the SP404 while triggering it with a MIDI controller.

Je Hones wrote:I've not really asked so far, but what do you think I should do, with all things considered, go for an MPC or the SP?

Well, considering where you are, some people here will try to convince you to get the MPC but it has to be said it's not at all the ideal tool for what you're wanting to do due to the limited memory of MPCs.

Between the two choices, it would have to be the SP404 but my actual recommendation based on your budget would be an iPod touch/iPad which can also be triggered from a MIDI controller.

mr_debauch wrote:yes, you will still get 100% functionality on the machine the mpd is connected to... it just gives the device an additional set of controls (additional pads in this case) ... like I said with my mpc situation. I use an mpd so I can trigger more pads at once... I still push the mpc's pads as normal.... I just use the mpd so I dont need to switch banks to hit one thing.

lets say bank A has the samples and the drums... well I might have all cymbals and gongs on bank B but I still need to hit those sounds in once in a while right? the thing is, I push gongs and things like that as a sort of break in the song or what ever... so often they will be hit at the beginning of a drum rhythm when my kick is also triggered... so how would I push the kick and quickly push the bank B button followed by hitting the gong all at the same exact second? that is the use for extra pads under your fingertips...

yes, you choose what the mpd will trigger.. ie: you choose what mpc pad each mpd pad will hit... you assign each pad on the mpd 16 manually like i mentioned earlier.

now for the midi part...

midi is a language that is used to communicate the action of pushing a keyboard key or a pad... with the sound(s) the machine makes... it has sounds or synth tones etc... and you pushing a key will send a midi message to the appropriate sound.

essentially, you know your mpd16? well it sends midi data.. you push a pad, and it sends the appropriate midi message (telling what midi note number it is assigned to) on a midi keyboard, you push the c5 key... and it sends the message "the c5 key was pushed.. so play the c5 sound"

now what this boils down to is, you can send that midi message from one device to another.

Right, the MPD used in tandem with the SP part is pretty clear now I think.

Yeah, I understand all that about a MIDI, I was just wondering how that would help my situation, like what the other dude was on about with sending "MIDI to the synth instead of sampling it all". I don't understand what he means because as far as I'm aware wouldn't I need to sample it into the SP anyway, in order for it to match up with the MIDI message coming from the MPD when I hit it?

emptysea wrote:

Je Hones wrote:I've not really asked so far, but what do you think I should do, with all things considered, go for an MPC or the SP?

Well, considering where you are, some people here will try to convince you to get the MPC but it has to be said it's not at all the ideal tool for what you're wanting to do due to the limited memory of MPCs.

Between the two choices, it would have to be the SP404 but my actual recommendation based on your budget would be an iPod touch/iPad which can also be triggered from a MIDI controller.

Haha, this just got crazy. I have an iPhone 3GS and a Galaxy Nexus. Would either of these do it? What would that entail, just hooking up the MPD and storing the samples in the phone? I'm not sure I want to go down this route, as I want to feel and hold something, but it is interesting.