Audio track

Why do you think that Akai has left out such an essential feature as audio track in the REN software ?

Makes it a lot more hassle to make remixes, and songs with vocals.... The way i do it now is that i export the instrumental, then add audio in sonar cakewalk...

Modest Blaze wrote:Why do you think that Akai has left out such an essential feature as audio track in the REN software ?

Because that's what DAWs are for. Old MPC models also worked without audio tracks, you still had to track it to a different medium. It definately would be a nice addition indeed, but I prefer other programmes to do so.

Modest Blaze wrote:Why do you think that Akai has left out such an essential feature as audio track in the REN software ?

Makes it a lot more hassle to make remixes, and songs with vocals.... The way i do it now is that i export the instrumental, then add audio in sonar cakewalk...

I guess they figured that it wasn't a feature that most people wanted before some of the other features (like VSTs, legacy MPC compatibility, ect.) and only having enough resources to tackle only so many features. As far as doing remixes you could always use the REN in plugin mode or sync it to your daw.

Ren will never be as powerful as logic o cubase or wathever daw when it comes to functionality.

I don't want audio tracks in the Ren - but I'm sure due to pressure Akai will feel the need to implement it. I guarantee in doing that its going to bring issues to the ren and it wont stop there. Then they will ask for more Daw features - auto this, auto that etc and the more that's added the whole concept of the MPC/Ren/Drum machine sampler will be watered down and it will become bloated. We actually do need some limitations to become really creative.

And seriously - what cant anyone do with such massive sampling time . You not only have that, you can insert plugin fx, play VSTs etc. What other MPC gave you this?

audio tracks and esoteric daw features!

I think the main benefit of having audio tracks is not so much for vocals but when sampling live instruments. Say you have a live guitar that you are sampling into the Ren and the riff doesn't start on a beat that's easy to align it to so what you have to do now is kind of play around with the sample trying to get it aligned correctly but with audio tracks you can simply record it to the right spot and forget about it. Audio tracks aren't a big thing for me but I think it will sit well with the workflow of some folks.

Audio tracks would be cool with basic editing features.

Jonespnice1 wrote:I think the main benefit of having audio tracks is not so much for vocals but when sampling live instruments. Say you have a live guitar that you are sampling into the Ren and the riff doesn't start on a beat that's easy to align it to so what you have to do now is kind of play around with the sample trying to get it aligned correctly but with audio tracks you can simply record it to the right spot and forget about it. Audio tracks aren't a big thing for me but I think it will sit well with the workflow of some folks.

I just think if the Ren goes down this route the request for more daw like features will ramp up even more. People wont be happy with a few tracks of basic audio capability - they will start requesting the exact same audio functionality a major Daw has. Instant time stretching, auto tuning, warp markers, comping, increased editing functionality etc. Then this leads to a multitude of other requests. Peeps simply look at what their daw has and think I want all that in the Ren.
The more Daw audio type features added the more bloated the software will become, and for sure an increase in problems for many reasons. The audio engine will undoubtedly have to take precedence over the midi. It always does. Anything which messes with the midi is bad - and after all MPC does stand for midi production centre/controller. Akai can never compete with the major daws and they shouldn't even try. If they go down that route or they will be inundated with daw request features which they will feel they have to succumb to, or they think it will shift a few more units - meanwhile the Ren ends up a jack of all trades but a master of none.

In fact - if they start to go down that road I will sell the Ren because I know exactly where it will lead to and that road is littered with frustration. I refuse to go through that again.

In my opinion, I believe Akai wanted to focus on essential MPC features first as well as new features like plugin support. It is only logical they will continue to advance the Ren and include features seen in DAWs. The MPC 5000 is the only MPC with hard disk audio tracks. I expect the Ren will have the same capability at some point.

And if they Ren is a successful product...I see no reason why it can't become as powerful as the leading DAWs.

Hi guys/girls,
Newly registered here and thought I would give another perspective than many here may have to all of this.

(Background: Started in the 1980's with a brand new, store bought, Roland Juno 60, Drumatix 606 and Tascam 144 4-track cassette Portastudio. I thought it couldn’t get any better – although I still lusted after that spaceship console on acid looking Jupiter 8…
MPC-wise I briefly owned a gray 3000 le. Loved the sound. Not keen on floppy disk technology and lack of audio time. Fantastic bottom end punch/push through the speakers though)

I have owned and used most DAW’s from early Emagic Notator, Opcode Vision, MOTU Performer, Cubase, Reason, Sonar and Live. Although they have great potential they have become more a producer/engineer’s tool than something for inspiration in the moment songwriting. (I have written full first drafts of many more songs with my acoustic guitar, a simple hand-held recorder and a pen and paper than I have with any ‘technology’ but that’s another story.)

I still own some hardware synths and had my eye on a good-priced MPC 5000 – precisely because it featured audio tracks and good MIDI/in-out spec – when I heard about the Ren. To me, the software reminds me of an early version of Notator or Cubase mixed with MPC features. That is a good thing to me! Just playing around with one in my local music store and watching the videos has given me a fairly good idea of how fast and intuitive the work flow is on it.
Now, regarding audio tracks:

It may be that the amount of sampling time available when hooked up to a reasonably powerful computer (I have an i7 - based PC with 16GB ram a 246 GB SSD and 3 fast, 1TB HD's etc.etc.) makes audio tracks fairly irrelevant as pointed out in this thread. However, here is how I would approach it:

1. Using audio tracks as a big comping/’audio dump’ for long and multiple takes of guitar, vox and backing vox.
2. From there I could either use ‘as is’ in the song as normal, DAW style audio tracks or chop out bits and resample them to the pads to be auditioned/played in on the fly as a normal sequence.

To me that approach has the immediacy of ‘step up to the mic’ live take performance recording with the fun sequence/remix capabilities of the MPC. All this without getting bogged down in the anal minutia of classical DAW workflows.

In other words, I do not want to transfer everything into a DAW if I can avoid it. That is just one more hurdle/complication between me and getting a damn song finished! A well-integrated Audio track recording section would help me achieve that.

Feel free to outline how this could be (realistically) achieved without them. I am all ears.

JAH wrote:In my opinion, I believe Akai wanted to focus on essential MPC features first as well as new features like plugin support. It is only logical they will continue to advance the Ren and include features seen in DAWs. The MPC 5000 is the only MPC with hard disk audio tracks. I expect the Ren will have the same capability at some point.

And if they Ren is a successful product...I see no reason why it can't become as powerful as the leading DAWs.

It will never be able to compete with leading Daws. If you sit and think about the sheer amount of features the ren would need to even get close you can see its a massive mountain to climb. Even if nAkai wanted to go down that route the users will experience years of frustration, bugs, issues of all sorts. And this is assuming Akai have the coding chops, and the Ren is going to be their main product for many years. Thats not going to happen.

As soon as they add audio tracks (which I think they will) the floodgates of persistent Daw features requests will open and this product will never reach what it could have been becasue the company will get sidetracked from the Rens main purpose - mark my words.

i know what its like starting with a Daw at version 1. Never again will I put my self through that shit.

RayDeeyay wrote:
To me that approach has the immediacy of ‘step up to the mic’ live take performance recording with the fun sequence/remix capabilities of the MPC. All this without getting bogged down in the anal minutia of classical DAW workflows.

In other words, I do not want to transfer everything into a DAW if I can avoid it. That is just one more hurdle/complication between me and getting a damn song finished! A well-integrated Audio track recording section would help me achieve that.

Feel free to outline how this could be (realistically) achieved without them. I am all ears.

I have owned and used most DAW’s from early Emagic Notator, Opcode Vision, MOTU Performer, Cubase, Reason, Sonar and Live. Although they have great potential they have become more a producer/engineer’s tool than something for inspiration in the moment songwriting.

Nah, a Daw is much more than an engineer/producers tool these days. Most EDM music is written and recorded in a Daw. New people coming in to the scene have no concept of what it was like recording years ago. A Daw/Computer setup is perfectly natural to them. And MPC style is definitely not for everyone, even if the Ren does get Daw features.

had my eye on a good-priced MPC 5000 – precisely because it featured audio tracks and good MIDI/in-out spec

midi spec is OK, but just so you know its not as tight as the MPC60/3000/4000. Yes it has audio tracks but the fact its hardware based made people more realistic about what they could expect from the machine. The Ren is different. People see a computer attached and go Bezerk with their fantasies.

To me, the software reminds me of an early version of Notator or Cubase mixed with MPC features. That is a good thing to me!

Its way less advanced than even Atari versions of Cubase/Logic. There is no step editing or numerical display of note positions. Very basic stuff is missing - yet people are demanding esoteric Daw features - you included and you dont even own it yet.

It may be that the amount of sampling time available when hooked up to a reasonably powerful computer (I have an i7 - based PC with 16GB ram a 246 GB SSD and 3 fast, 1TB HD's etc.etc.) makes audio tracks fairly irrelevant as pointed out in this thread. However, here is how I would approach it:

its not that I think a few audio tracks would be a bad idea. It's the moment their implemented the screaming for more and more Daw type features begins. It started even before the ren was released.

To me that approach has the immediacy of ‘step up to the mic’ live take performance recording with the fun sequence/remix capabilities of the MPC. All this without getting bogged down in the anal minutia of classical DAW workflows.

I dont think it would be as immediate as you think its going to be - particularly editing, comping etc. Akai are a long way off getting their product to do this stuff on the same level as Pro tools/Cubase/Logic etc.

As soon as audio tracks are in there people will use it a few times and think whoooa, my Daw does this and that better, I need this, I must have that. Meanwhile nAkais programmers are totally distracted from the purpose of the machine (Midi Production Centre/Studio) bogged down coding Daw features.

Sounds to me like you just need an MPC and a hard disk recorder. You didnt mention sampling drum machine - that is what this machine is all about. If you make music using mostly real instruments the MPC is not the best choice by any stretch of the imagination.
Its a performance instrument - not a click fest Daw.

And for the record I'm not saying this MPC has to be the exact same as hardware MPCs. In fact I believe they had a chance to drag the MPC sequencer out of a 25 year old model - they didn't do that. I know why they didn't - just pointing it out.


PS
The reason Native Instruments Maschine is incredibly popular ( I recently was told the sales figures) is precisely becasue its not a Daw, and users are not bogged down with Daw[size=85]esque features. The kids love it because they make music with it - like a guitar - a performance instrument.[/size]

Thanks for the detailed replies. I really do appreciate the effort and passion for the subject.

To address a few points. We are blessed with choice these days. Many of these products can achieve the same thing. It's the way they do it that makes it fun or a chore. Certain mind-sets will fit with certain working styles and not with others.

Labcoats, regarding the MPC 5000, yes, I have read about the MIDI timing and quite a few other issues (although it seems not every 5000 owner has them) so I decided to get with the present and future more than the past.

Regarding DAW features, I don't think I 'demanded' anything (let alone screamed). I merely contributed to this thread regarding audio tracks. As this has already been done by Akai on the 5000 it is not unreasonable to think they could do an OK job of it in a hybrid MPC like the Ren.

One of my dissapointments with hardware MPC's/Roland MV's was that they were powered by ancient spec computer parts inside the box (slow CPU's and HD's). The Ren has taken that weak link out of the equation at least.

While I understand your 'Pandora's Box' concerns (that the Ren, in the scenario you paint, could end up looking a little like the car designed by Homer Simpson...) you state that you are not averse to audio tracks. You also make the suggestion that I may be better off with a hardware MPC and a hard disk recorder but surely a MPC Ren with audio tracks would be a much more elagant solution to acheive exactly the same result? I assume this is what both Roland and Akai were thinking when they released their hardware sampling sequencers with audio tracking (MPC 5000/MV 8800).

I think we actually are in agreement on many aspects. I stated in my original post that I thought DAWs have become overly complex. You state I might be disappointed by the rather simple sequencer spec of the Ren. Actually its basic simplicity is one of the things that attracted me.

To give a parallel to this, I write books, blogs and articles (not music related). My word processor/text editor of choice is the minimalist Writemonkey precisely because it is a very non-distracting environment in which to write. I only use MS Word to put things in a format easily transferred to other places. To quote a writer who published 90 books in 30 years about the secret of his prolific output: "I avoid labor saving devices." (Logic's old 'environment page' anyone?...)

I think too many editing tools means one becomes too tempted to 'polish a turd' instead of just doing another performance/take. I contributed to the Writemonkey forum with a post much like Labcoat's on this thread about not screwing up the innate Zen-like concept by pandering to too many feature requests.

Like pspsounds I agree that "Audio tracks would be cool with basic editing features"

Regarding sampling, I prefer to sample myself. I am not that interested in gargantuan sample libraries. Again, perhaps unlike many here I have never made and probably will never make a hip-hop track. I look at the Ren as simply a fun way to put together musical ideas regardless of style.

It's not life and death for me. It's creative play. I used to sing in a punk band in the late '70's called 'The Penetrators' so a sense of humor comes with the territory...

I cant pick you up on all those points.
Before the Ren was introduced many MPC owners would state they dreamed of an MPC which would integrate better with their Daws. Barring a few updates still to come they have the perfect MPC for their DAWs. But already, thats not enough. Now they want their MPC to be a Daw.
Im not against some basic audio tracks - but that wouldn't satisfy people - including you.
My point is - if nAkai plough down the daw route it will be a very bumpy road for all - and it will take years (and thats no lie) to get the thing up to the standard of other Daws. I know for certain they would be far better off concentrating on the core of the MPC Rens functionality as a Sampling Drum Machine - Sequencer - multi timbral synth -VST host - massive FX machine. Whats wrong with that.

Hope they wont actually listen To labcoat To Be honest...But of It gets daw-features I like (I just want to use one piece of software,not converting,individual mixdown...blabla..i don't like pro tools,sold it,now using propellerhead reason for vocals.. But I get your point lab coat.Thats why they should leave the possibility to use the stripped down version (the current version) for faster workflow and more of the pure mpc line of work.. Less CPU. But i want it to be a nice and stable DAW. And all daw's need to start somewhere