Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/Live

MPC X, MPC Live, MPC One & MPC Key 61 Forum: Support and discussion for the MPC X, MPC Live, MPC Live II, MPC One & MPC Key 61; Akai's current generation of standalone MPCs.
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Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By 40Beatz Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:47 am
CharlesRandolph wrote:
40Beatz wrote:


I did a quick Lil video of how to do it. Again this may already be a known option on any Midi Controller tho


How many track does it allow for you to change? How about the faders and knobs, and arrow buttons? CLICKY CLICK! :lol:


After playin with it some more, I can change All 128 Tracks.
On the Motif, I can select Banks A thru H (8 banks). 16 channels a piece.

I'm still tryin to control two separate channels on the keyboard. I know it can be done, just not sure if it will trigger two MPC Tracks at the same time.
I'll keep you posted

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By CharlesRandolph Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:02 am
40Beatz wrote:
After playin with it some more, I can change All 128 Tracks.
On the Motif, I can select Banks A thru H (8 banks). 16 channels a piece.

I'm still tryin to control two separate channels on the keyboard. I know it can be done, just not sure if it will trigger two MPC Tracks at the same time.
I'll keep you posted


On the Motif can you select two channels at the same time?

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By 40Beatz Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:31 am
In Master Performance Mode I can layer 4 different Zones/Midi Channels to be Transmitted. When I turn on my Local, I can hear 4 different Motif layers. But the MPC is stopping it from triggering the layers on different input channels... Hence what everyone is complaining about :lol:
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Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By Lampdog Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:19 pm
40Beatz wrote:In Master Performance Mode I can layer 4 different Zones/Midi Channels to be Transmitted. When I turn on my Local, I can hear 4 different Motif layers. But the MPC is stopping it from triggering the layers on different input channels... Hence what everyone is complaining about :lol:

This would piss me off because I use multi-timb between kybd, turbophatt and 4k all the time.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By Elektrobolt Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:10 am
40Beatz wrote:Im just curious....Can you guys explain the Scenario or setup thats using the Multi Midi Input to its fullest potential. Ive asked a few times, and nobody has really described in detail.

40Beatz wrote:Forgive me if im Illiterate in this area.

40Beatz wrote:Oooo Ok i have a better understanding now. Im gettin the sense that Multi Timbural on the Input, is mainly a desire to Control Multiple Channels in a Live Performance Environment versus a Studio Environment.


Multi-mode and multi-timbrality do not refer to the same thing. Though they are related to the concept of channels which is part of the MIDI protocol. It's built-in.

Multi-timbrality, or rather multi-timbre, generally refers to the ability of a sound generator (e.g. sound module) being able to play multiple different sounds, or timbres, at the same time. In relation to MIDI, this generally means doing so using different MIDI channels.

Multi-mode is a concept of operating a MIDI system using channels as a way to route messages. Omni mode is sort of the "opposite" of this, where the system treats all MIDI channels as one channel. This mode is basically that of the current MPC devices, with the feature of disregarding HW ports, as well. :)

When having lots of MIDI equipment it is almost a requirement to have a system that can utilize MIDI channels as a mean to route. I think people that have yet to use MIDI other than connect A to B, cannot truly understand the prospect.

A somewhat skewed analogy with audio and their patch-bays can be drawn. Anyone who has worked in larger audio environments can attest to the usefulness of patch-bays, which enables routing in one place, rather than digging on the back pf devices mounted in racks or on shelves/tables. You set up your environment once, with the appropriate cables, and can then operate everything from a single location.

Another similar situation arises when talking about pad mapping. Many people probably don't see the point of being able to "map" the pads. But try to use a few traditional drum machines with the MPC, and something will be immediately evident. It becomes difficult to find some of the sounds, and some of the sounds are not where you expect them to be.

Almost any device needing to route MIDI ends up having a "router" dealing with the MIDI I/O. Even the current implementation on the MPC's do. Anyways, these are all related to concepts that any DAW have either good, or less, solutions to. I would expect the Akai "software" have implementations of them, as well. The MPC doesn't necessarily need all related features of a general DAW, but then again, why re-invent the wheel, when they are trying to consolidate their software development efforts? And why make something work in ways people aren't used to.

Sometimes I think that companies choose to do something because it seems like less of an effort, even though many times it ultimately ends up a problem, or even creating a backlash.
User avatar

yep

By Lampdog Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:56 pm
Elektrobolt wrote:
Multi-timbrality, or rather multi-timbre, generally refers to the ability of a sound generator (e.g. sound module) being able to play multiple different sounds, or timbres, at the same time. In relation to MIDI, this generally means doing so using different MIDI channels.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By renegadebliss Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:12 am
Let me give an example from the MPC 4000.

The MPC has this additional concept, called the "Multi". The Multi consists of a way to group a number of Program, FX, Mixer and other items and their configurations. In a Multi you can go to a the Midi Page. In the Midi page, you can assign each Program to Midi Channel (there's a separate Midi Routing option in the Midi Config page that chooses whether it's Midi port A or Midi port B that is coming to the Multi).

So let's say you have :

Program 1 called Piano assigned to Midi channel 1
Program 2 called MiniMoog bass to Midi Channel 2
Program 3 called OB1 Lead assigned to Midi Channel 3
Program 4 called TR808 Drums assigned to Midi Channel 4
Program 5 called Xpander Strings assigned to Midi Channel 5.

Then I take my band... 3 of them have keyboards , another has Akai MPD218 and I'm on the 4000 (i don't have a band but just giving this example to illustrate). All 3 keyboards and the MPD218 Midi out's go into a Mid Thru box and into MPC 4000 Port A. The Midi page works like this:

C MIDI Ch field
Specifies the MIDI receive channel for each part. If you select 1A–16A, MIDI events of the corresponding channel 1–16 from virtual MIDI port A will be sent to the part. If you select 1B–16B, MIDI events of the corresponding channel 1–16 from virtual MIDI port B will be sent to the part.


Ralph is on Keyboards controller 1 and it's assigned to Midi Channel 1 and he plays the piano track.
Florian is on Keyboard controller 2 and it's assigned to Midi Channel 2 and he plays the MiniMoog bass
Fritz is on Keyboard controller 3 and it's assigned to Midi Channel 3 and he plays the Oberheim OB1 Lead
and Wolfgang is on the MPD218 and it's assigned to Midi Channel 4 and he plays our TR808 drum sounds.
I'm on MPC 4000 (stoked that I'm playing with Kraftwerk!) and my MP4k screen is to Program 5 , and I play the Expander strings.

Now whether we hit play on the 4000 or just leave it stopped. We can all play at once and do live freestyle jams's. And we're jamming Numbers live! :). All of us are playing different programs on the MPC 4000 independently at the same time. Thanks to Midi working as it's supposed to and a sampler acting as it's supposed to when programmed with forethought by Akai..

----------
Or another variation, more actual inline with how I play live.

I'm on the MPC 4000 and my Sequentix P3. My Live partner is on his TR-707 which is wired to the MPC Midi port same with the Sequentix P3.

I have a drum program that has samples mapped to the same notes as the 707 plays. My partner can program live 707 step programming and it will play either 707 (if the volume is turned up) or a drum program on MPC 4000 (but using the 707 Step Sequencer to play it) or if we turn up the volume on the 707 and the 4k Program it will play BOTH.

At the same time , I have my P3 which I can do live step sequencing and manipulation of 8 different Midi channels. These trigger notes on different programs on the 4k. At the same time, I'm on the 4k pads triggering another program or rocking the Track Mute page or Next Seq page (where the h*ll is Next Seq on the One/X/Live Akai!!!!!!!!!) all at the same time.

This just can't be done now w/ the Live/X/One. It would make them that much more powerful if they could.


The above examples are also shows why one would need more then 512M --> 1G of Ram for your samples. I see this said all the time on MPC Forums here, or Gear Slutz, people saying what are you doing? , "I've never ran out of RAM when making 1 song". If everybody making music on the MPC's only made and played one track at a time, then yes it will work. But if you are trying to do a live non stop musical set with 40-50 songs going between each song without stopping, it's easy to run out of RAM, w/ the 4k and it's 512M limit, we have to be creative and re-use a bunch of the same programs, etc.. between the songs. But do remember. Because you use the MPC this way.. does't mean that Joe Bob over there uses it the same way. That's the beauty of the machine. It's flexible enough for many different methods to make music. Akai.. if you give us more power.. I promise you there are people here who will use it :!:

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By Elektrobolt Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:31 pm
Yeah, that seems to me like such an object is called multi for the reason that it contains multiple programs. Meaning, it's not a MIDI concept per se, but more an MPC type of object. It's like a rack module or DAW plugin (e.g. a VST) that can play multiple sounds at the same time.

You say the multi-program is assigned a port and then the underlying units can fight for the channels? So I would classify this as a multi-timbral concoction.

I sincerely hope that "multi-mode" is not "just" that. Multi-mode is the word that is used by Akai to address the concerns about the current and lacking MIDI implementation. However, they also spoke of needing to implement a different underlying "core" and the 1-to-1 tracks prior to implementing multi-mode. I assume 1-to-1 means the need for more of a DAW concepts in terms of tracks. The core may be the concept of keeping track of watching ports and some other goodies. (I believe Akai said this core was mostly in place.)

Typically a DAW has a master router to manage the endpoints (e.g. the MIDI ins and outs connected to the system), which I think it something the MPC is or at least has been lacking. I think Akai was simply strapped for time and skipped stuff deemed not needed at the time.

Speaking of (and I am going out of scope here), I also think that they are missing out on a vital concept, which may already be a distant goal of course, in that they could literally replace the sample players (the sort of integrated old MPC programs) with plugins, now that they can do plugins. This would have the added advantage of distributing work without needing to worry about the "system" (I mean like the sequencer part of the MPC concept) itself for everything.

One can imagine a clip plugin (former program), a drum plugin and a key plugin could all be their own players with their own way of existing. This would also means separating the sequencer, which I think is currently being imposed on by the structure of "old" MPC and the way the programs are "integrated" into it. By separating the sequencer it should be easier to manage things like tempo, sync and routing, etc.

Old sound programs could still be made loadable into these plugins. Maybe even easier than with an integrated state, since there is less systemic things to worry about. Well, except maybe for resources, but that's always a worry, is it not? ;)

Maybe that grain synthesizer could be yet another... Ha ha ha, never ending Hermans.

Anyways, just some tangents to stew about.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By renegadebliss Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:23 pm
Elektrobolt wrote:Yeah, that seems to me like such an object is called multi for the reason that it contains multiple programs. Meaning, it's not a MIDI concept per se, but more an MPC type of object. It's like a rack module or DAW plugin (e.g. a VST) that can play multiple sounds at the same time.


If you've seen the conversations from the Program manager from Akai on Gearslutz... he's indicated there are 2 issue when it comes to MultTimberal Midi on the Akai.

You have routing.. and then you have to have each individual track able to receive and handle that route.

Yes, it's an MPC object, but it's an MPC Object that has been programmed what to do when Midi comes in.




Elektrobolt wrote:You say the multi-program is assigned a port and then the underlying units can fight for the channels? So I would classify this as a multi-timbral concoction.


I would as well, that's why it's not implemented like that. Nothing fights for anything. What the Multi Says is Midi Channel 1. Responds on Midi Channel 1. Doesn't matter if that is Track 1 or Track 10 or Track 99, or ALL of them. What Midi Channel that you select on your Track, is actually changing it on the Multi and Reading it from Mulit. The track is programmed to use Multi midi assignment for what Midi channel it responds on.

Your Sequence WILL NOT play anything unless you already have a Multi w/ program. It's completely integrated into everything. If you are on the "Main" screen:
Image

In the Track Selection part, right below where it says Drum Program and Mute, you'll see the 2 Output's. Meaning that I can have 1 Track going to my internal Program and at the exact same time going to any of my external Midi ports that I select, so it can be playing 2 thing at the same time if wanted. And to the right of that you see Part: Program. - When you change what Program is selected on that track, it's actually changing the Part on the Multi. The Multi is fully integrated and required by the Sequencer and between the Multi and Sequencer Track sections you choose how to Route any specific individual track.

So for example, I can have my Controller coming in Midi Port In A going to my Track 1.
And then from my MPC 4k Main/Sequencer/Track screen I can route that specific input to ANY of my internal programs, or to ANY of my Midi Channels 1-16 on Midi Out's A --> D. Or both. So essentially I can choose my midi route's for any specific track on a per track basis. This requires the Multi for the internal routing to parts and sampler.

Then I can do the same thing to any of my 128 tracks in my sequence. I can also have Multiple Multi's and be able to embed a Program Change sequence to switch to a different Multi, so when I go to the Next Seq page (doesn't exist in the current One/Live/ZX product) and switch from Seq 1 (my song 1) to Seq 2 (my song 2), all the correct routings, program layout, Mixer settings, FX Settings, QLink Sequencer (another great concept that needs to be implemented in the One/Live/X line) are all exactly as I want them. Whether that be exactly the same as Seq 1 (don't change the Multi) or completely different by having it select a different Multi with different Mix/FX/Qlink/etc..

A very creative tool actually. Allowed on to be able to "play" in your track different instant FX & Mixer setting along with Qlink Step Sequences. Great for breakdowns and buildups and transitions. Sort of like the same concept at the I/F Variation on the TR 808 but on Steroids.

It was above most people's heads which turned a lot of people off of the 4k originally but can provide for some great flexibility never before seen in an MPC or MV or any other hardware sequencer. It helped for it to be a great Midi Hub. But that was because of the tight integration between the Multi , the Sequencer Track and the Midi Routing that is on the Global level.





Elektrobolt wrote:I sincerely hope that "multi-mode" is not "just" that. Multi-mode is the word that is used by Akai to address the concerns about the current and lacking MIDI implementation.


Akai hasn't been talking about Multi Mode at all. I have but Akai haven't. They've been talking about providing Multi Timbral Midi input. Whether they do that by adding a concept of a Multi or through some other method is yet to be seen. But I don't think the current NuKai developers even know what a Multi is, but I certainly wish they would.



Elektrobolt wrote:However, they also spoke of needing to implement a different underlying "core" and the 1-to-1 tracks prior to implementing multi-mode. I assume 1-to-1 means the need for more of a DAW concepts in terms of tracks. The core may be the concept of keeping track of watching ports and some other goodies. (I believe Akai said this core was mostly in place.)


I'm not sure about that. Here is what Dan the program manager indicated on GearSlutz about it:

disk streaming is going to be a 3.0 thing, because in 2.x there's no concept of a 1 to 1 track model, so it's a pile of confusion. for instance, seq 1 can be drums on track 3, then on seq 2 it could be on track 10, or completely different programs entirely.

3.0 will be a 1 to 1 model (like force is now). track 1, when you add a drum kit or plugin will then be on track 1 in all sequences. this is probably our #1 request, actually


Most DAW's don't require that the drum kit has to on track 1 and my minmoog bass HAS to be on track 2. That's what 1 to 1 track mode means. It actually removes some of the flexibility that is in the MPC products that people relied on, but also provides other nice features and benefits.

I'm not 100% convinced that I'm going to like the 1 to 1 track mode concept but we'll have to see how they actually implement it. If you're making only 1 song at a time on the MPC, I can only see benefits.

But if you use the MPC to play multiple songs in a row, that use completely different kits & track structures, I'm not sure how or even if it will be able to used like that.


For example on my Song 1 (Sequence 1), my first track is my bd, and my second track is the rest of my drum. kit and track 3 I have a bass and track 4 i have my lead

But the second Song (Sequence2) that I play, it has Track's 1-12 all playing each individual sound from a TR808. BD on 1, SD on 2, Clap on 3, etc... and track 14 is my bass and 15 is my lead.

With 1 to 1 Track Mode this isn't going to be possible.

I guess, all they are ensuring is that I can't sell my MP4k for a Live, it's just going to have to sit next to it.


You plugin concept is a good idea. Then they can also make a Sampler program and actually put some of features that the S5000/6000/Z4/Z8 have for a fully robust sampler to be implemented on the new product.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By renegadebliss Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:51 pm
renegadebliss wrote:
Elektrobolt wrote:Yeah, that seems to me like such an object is called multi for the reason that it contains multiple programs. Meaning, it's not a MIDI concept per se, but more an MPC type of object. It's like a rack module or DAW plugin (e.g. a VST) that can play multiple sounds at the same time.


If you've seen the conversations from the Program manager from Akai on Gearslutz... he's indicated there are 2 issue when it comes to MultTimberal Midi on the Akai.

You have routing.. and then you have to have each individual track able to receive and handle that route.

Yes, it's an MPC object, but it's an MPC Object that has been programmed what to do when Midi comes in.




Elektrobolt wrote:You say the multi-program is assigned a port and then the underlying units can fight for the channels? So I would classify this as a multi-timbral concoction.


I would as well, that's why it's not implemented like that. Nothing fights for anything. What the Multi Says is Midi Channel 1. Responds on Midi Channel 1. Doesn't matter if that is Track 1 or Track 10 or Track 99, or ALL of them. What Midi Channel that you select on your Track, is actually changing it on the Multi and Reading it from Mulit. The track is programmed to use Multi midi assignment for what Midi channel it responds on.

Your Sequence WILL NOT play anything unless you already have a Multi w/ program. It's completely integrated into everything. If you are on the "Main" screen:
Image

In the Track Selection part, right below where it says Drum Program and Mute, you'll see the 2 Output's. Meaning that I can have 1 Track going to my internal Program and at the exact same time going to any of my external Midi ports that I select, so it can be playing 2 thing at the same time if wanted. And to the right of that you see Part: Program. - When you change what Program is selected on that track, it's actually changing the Part on the Multi. The Multi is fully integrated and required by the Sequencer and between the Multi and Sequencer Track sections you choose how to Route any specific individual track.

So for example, I can have my Controller coming in Midi Port In A going to my Track 1.
And then from my MPC 4k Main/Sequencer/Track screen I can route that specific input to ANY of my internal programs, or to ANY of my Midi Channels 1-16 on Midi Out's A --> D. Or both. So essentially I can choose my midi route's for any specific track on a per track basis. This requires the Multi for the internal routing to parts and sampler.

Then I can do the same thing to any of my 128 tracks in my sequence. I can also have Multiple Multi's and be able to embed a Program Change sequence to switch to a different Multi, so when I go to the Next Seq page (doesn't exist in the current One/Live/ZX product) and switch from Seq 1 (my song 1) to Seq 2 (my song 2), all the correct routings, program layout, Mixer settings, FX Settings, QLink Sequencer (another great concept that needs to be implemented in the One/Live/X line) are all exactly as I want them. Whether that be exactly the same as Seq 1 (don't change the Multi) or completely different by having it select a different Multi with different Mix/FX/Qlink/etc..

A very creative tool actually. Allowed on to be able to "play" in your Song's with different instant FX & Mixer setting along with Qlink Step Sequences. Great for breakdowns and buildups and transitions. Sort of like the same concept at the I/F Variation on the TR 808 but on Steroids.

It was above most people's heads which turned a lot of people off of the 4k originally but can provide for some great flexibility never before seen in an MPC or MV or any other hardware sequencer. It helped for it to be a great Midi Hub. But that was because of the tight integration between the Multi , the Sequencer Track and the Midi Routing that is on the Global level.





Elektrobolt wrote:I sincerely hope that "multi-mode" is not "just" that. Multi-mode is the word that is used by Akai to address the concerns about the current and lacking MIDI implementation.


Akai hasn't been talking about Multi Mode at all. I have but Akai haven't. They've been talking about providing Multi Timbral Midi input. Whether they do that by adding a concept of a Multi or through some other method is yet to be seen. But I don't think the current NuKai developers even know what a Multi is, but I certainly wish they would.



Elektrobolt wrote:However, they also spoke of needing to implement a different underlying "core" and the 1-to-1 tracks prior to implementing multi-mode. I assume 1-to-1 means the need for more of a DAW concepts in terms of tracks. The core may be the concept of keeping track of watching ports and some other goodies. (I believe Akai said this core was mostly in place.)


I'm not sure about that. Here is what Dan the program manager indicated on GearSlutz about it:

disk streaming is going to be a 3.0 thing, because in 2.x there's no concept of a 1 to 1 track model, so it's a pile of confusion. for instance, seq 1 can be drums on track 3, then on seq 2 it could be on track 10, or completely different programs entirely.

3.0 will be a 1 to 1 model (like force is now). track 1, when you add a drum kit or plugin will then be on track 1 in all sequences. this is probably our #1 request, actually


Most DAW's don't require that the drum kit has to on track 1 and my minmoog bass HAS to be on track 2. That's what 1 to 1 track mode means. It actually removes some of the flexibility that is in the MPC products that people relied on, but also provides other nice features and benefits.

I'm not 100% convinced that I'm going to like the 1 to 1 track mode concept but we'll have to see how they actually implement it. If you're making only 1 song at a time on the MPC, I can only see benefits.

But if you use the MPC to play multiple songs in a row, that use completely different kits & track structures, I'm not sure how or even if it will be able to used like that. Except I guess, if you limit yourself to the restriction, for example in a Live set, I can see advantages, because I know on Track 1 it's my BD and Track 2 it's my Bass, so I always know where it's at, on the 4k I just have to read the name of the track (which is visible in the track mute screens) to know what it's doing . It will be a different way of doing things.


For example on my Song 1 (Sequence 1), my first track is my bd, and my second track is the rest of my drum. kit and track 3 I have a bass and track 4 i have my lead

But the second Song (Sequence2) that I play, it has Track's 1-12 all playing each individual sound from a TR808. BD on 1, SD on 2, Clap on 3, etc... and track 14 is my bass and 15 is my lead.

and my 3rd song (Sequence 3) is an ambient track with all sort's of long playing wav's on each channel that don't conform to any drum/bass/lead/strings structure.

With 1 to 1 Track Mode this isn't going to be possible.

I guess, all they are ensuring is that I can't sell my MP4k for a Live, it's just going to have to sit next to it though I don't like lugging it out.. it sits nice as the Hub in the Studio, so I'd probably have to get another One/Live and use Ableton Link to sync them, then essentially Song 1 on Live 1 , Song 2 on Live 2 , Song 3 on Live 1 like a DJ set. Just seems like a lot when it should/could all be done from the same unit... Till 3.0 then we will see I guess..


You plugin concept is a good idea. Then they can also make a Sampler program and actually put some of features that the S5000/6000/Z4/Z8 have for a fully robust sampler to be implemented on the new product.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By 40Beatz Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 pm
Actually Those were just some Cheap Generic sounds I loaded into The MPC. With a Lil Air Reverb on them.
Only the Midi was Hooked up from the Motif...No Audio.

Just wanted to show that I can Switch Channels(Tracks) Directly from the Motif Panel. Was able to Double up Midi Channels on the Motif, but the MPC still seen it as One Midi Channel

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By Elektrobolt Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:17 pm
Elektrobolt wrote:I sincerely hope that "multi-mode" is not "just" that. Multi-mode is the word that is used by Akai to address the concerns about the current and lacking MIDI implementation.

renegadebliss wrote:Akai hasn't been talking about Multi Mode at all. I have but Akai haven't. They've been talking about providing Multi Timbral Midi input. Whether they do that by adding a concept of a Multi or through some other method is yet to be seen. But I don't think the current NuKai developers even know what a Multi is, but I certainly wish they would.

What you are saying, is not true.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... st13280815

The post that he is responding to, is one post earlier.

Re: Any sign of multitimbral midi implementation for MPC X/L

By Elektrobolt Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:43 pm
renegadebliss wrote:Akai hasn't been talking about Multi Mode at all. I have but Akai haven't. They've been talking about providing Multi Timbral Midi input. Whether they do that by adding a concept of a Multi or through some other method is yet to be seen. But I don't think the current NuKai developers even know what a Multi is, but I certainly wish they would.

Some more older posts from gearslutz.com about this:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=338
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=419
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=420
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