Ableton Push 3: New Standalone Player In The Game....

I agree about waiting it out to see if they add Arranger View as well as proper Automation Display. Then I would probably be down for the controller. I feel like they will release upgrades with better processors so I'll wait to see if that happens although its not needed for what I do, I just dont want to buy an upgrade to buy another upgrade down the road.

I still think that Force would benefit from clip follow (brought this up more than a year ago), and being able to plug in an optical mouse for convenience. I'd even be OK with clip follow without rendering, if you can automate it into the arranger and then render that. Other than that, perhaps a few tweaks to automation curves like being able to use splines - but nothing really outlandish. However, I don't think that Akai was really hoping to get the computer cash, rather than coming at product design from a different direction.

OK, this is a bit esoteric, so let me try it from this angle:

In 2010, the standalone MPC was dying on the vine. By 2015, Akai was basically selling controllers and audio interfaces. They were piggybacking on computers to deliver the power, and while it worked, it sucked. Akai's devices were just competition for things from M-Audio. The call for standalone devices came from people who wanted to move away from computers, and Akai managed to split the difference by allowing for some communication with computers while also having the devices be full, useful pieces of equipment in their own right. The focus was not on "replace your computer" but on "do without your computer".

The Ableton mentality on the other hand looks like "this is your dedicated Ableton computer" which is why it's weak on I/O because they don't think of it as being the master of your studio in the same way, why they want to run it on NUC-style Intel packages, why they want you to purchase and register your Ableton, and everything that relates to that.

It's a mindset problem, and it shows. Ableton is selling computers with Ableton and without email clients. Akai is selling production equipment that happens to have chips inside.

Nice break down.

Koekepan wrote:It's a mindset problem, and it shows. Ableton is selling computers with Ableton (Live) and without email clients. Akai is selling production equipment that happens to have chips inside.

I disagree. From the way I see it - both are production equipment, and both Akai and now Ableton are selling custom computer controllers that run in standalone without email clients, running their proprietary "DAW" in standalone, and both Akai and Ableton are using/will use these platforms to sell additional content (optional plugins, effects, sample packs, etc). Ableton just took their time getting into the game.

EnochLight wrote:Cool - let us know how you get on with it. I'm definitely taking a "wait and see" approach - I'll give it 12 months. I want to see if Ableton actually delivers on the Arranger in standalone,** and follow actions in Session view are an absolute must for me. That and, I want to see how this early hardware shakes out as far as reliability - I refuse to be an early adopter “beta tester” for Push 3.

That said, a lot can change in 12 months - if Akai keeps churning out solid updates for Force over the next 6-12 months to keep pace with Ableton, then I’m perfectly fine keeping my Force. I’ve got an MPC Live II for the portability stuff (and the battery lasts twice as long!), so I’m good.

Who knows... maybe I'll do with the Push 3 what I did with the 404 mk2, and just write a free book and do a year or two of videos on it. I feel like I'm running out of things to say about the mk2 that I *care* to say about it. the mk2 stuff was mostly done as a personal experiment, but I wasn't super passionate about it. I've been (not currently am) a hard core Ableton Live user... so... I'm not sure about the Push 3... but I think it'll fill a gap for me to mess around with that the MPC (plenty of amazing content already) and the OP-1 (lots of content, but super niche) already have filled, which is why I haven't gone super deep into videos for either.

To me, Akai and Roland have shown that they can do a bit of an about face. The value used to always be in "the next big thing", and software has really revolutionized parts of the music industry. "Platform" is no longer a moment in time, but both companies in their own way, are showing that a platform is something that can actually be supported. Akai has taken the hardware path, and it is giving validity to the Live/One/X product line, actually inviting customers to stay around a while... and heck this even applies to the Force. Roland has gone more the cloud based approach, which is kind of backwards (in my mind), but if it helps draw firmware updates and a steady stream of patches and other content... well cool by me.

I speculate that Ableton is entering this market due to a few things. Close ties to hardware vendor(s), and for example, if Ableton is still partnered with Akai on this, honestly it's a win/win for both as they can both learn from each other and have healthy coopetition, and still move both hardware and software. Where I suspect Ableton has the advantage is in the marketplace department. They've got *far* more libraries, Max4Live opens up a ridiculous amount of content from fx, to synths, to all kinds of external automation craziness. That said... it's tied to an Ableton Live Suite bundle... which... makes the Standalone kit feel even more pricey.

The Force was pretty close to hitting the mark for what I'm looking for, and honestly it's still possible for Akai to get there either with software updates or with a mk2 hardware release. Akai is clearly nailing some amount of hardware/software integration... but I find the software to be a bit lacking. Ableton from what I can see has the software nailed down, and with the push/push 2 has made great strides towards hardware integration. Yeah I know Push 3 is going to be Beta until it is not, but I am pretty confident that Ableton will get there with much (if not all) of the hardware integration.

I'd seriously like to see Roland step in with a new MV... make it a 3 way clip/arranger showdown... would be awesome.

EnochLight: you're not wrong, in the sense of what the things are. But I don't think that you're really picking up what I'm putting down in terms of product design, mindset, and how it leads to a direction for the result.

Akai, in their design efforts, clearly spent quality time thinking about the thing as something that a device-driven producer (someone who ten years previously might have been killing it on a 2500 or a 4000) with a studio full of external synths and controllers and maybe crates of vinyl might have wanted. They thought about MIDI ins and outs, they thought about main audio and cue mix. They thought about inputs and outputs and phantom power and USB connections and workflow and Q-links and scribble strips, and where they could exclude or include the various features up and down their range. They spoke about the interface, the touch screen, and if you want a computer in the mix they spoke about yeah, it could act as a controller for the software if you want to get the computer to do the heavy lifting.

See? Standalone mindset. The Akai is a thing that does production stuff. If it had a keyboard, it would have been called a workstation (and people do call the Key61 a workstation).

Ableton's thing: it runs Ableton Live! That's pretty much their opening position, driving the message around the software, and the question being how they can position the software as the driving force behind the design (ignoring all the bits that it won't do - yet - and how the reduced screen size compared to a desktop machine makes it harder to use the software) with some physical controller features to make it look more like a device that isn't really a laptop. Except that it effectively is.

Mindset drives choices. The first thing that I did when I saw the news of the Push3 was to check out what I could about the connections, because what I drive in my studio is key, regardless of what I'm using to drive it. (Even my old KORG Kross will drive 16 channels of MIDI, and I use that fact.) Ableton clearly expects this to play the role of laptop + push controller, and their design choices reflect that.

It doesn't even seem to accept SDcards unless you have a USB adapter, and even then I'm not clear on what its support would be for that storage option.

NearTao wrote:I'd seriously like to see Roland step in with a new MV... make it a 3 way clip/arranger showdown... would be awesome.

Only if Roland does an ACB of the JX-8P that I can load onto my System-8 first!

@Koekepan - I think I understand your perspective, but the thing is, Ableton's premier product from the very start has been Live DAW - so it makes complete sense that Push 3's (standalone) headline feature marketed would be "it runs Live without a computer!" Live (DAW) was their "MPC 60" moment. And yes, I realize Push came later (thanks to Akai! ). Everyone who uses Live and Push (1 and 2) with a computer has been clamouring for an MPC Live/X/Force standalone moment, and now they have it. So it makes complete sense that Ableton would promote that front and center.

Akai's MPC Software has never been an "I have to have it" working environment - it's literally a utility app for the MPC when running in desktop mode. Their legacy as making standalone sampler workstations beginning with the first MPC 60 obviously came full circle in 2017 when the standalone Live and X came out, and that's their sole jam. It's been their sole jam. And they've been doing it since 2017 relatively unchallenged until Maschine+ came out, which - didn't seem to make people leave in droves - not by any stretch. But now we have Ableton breathing down their neck with a standalone Push that runs Live (allegedly the fully featured DAW), and that's real competition.

I guess my point was - it doesn't matter what mindset you have or how you look at it - there is one very solid reality: both MPC/Force and Push 3 are custom computers/controllers, that run standalone, with their own "DAW", and both are platforms to sell more software/content. They have that in common, and they are now fighting directly over a similar market. They may have taken slightly different paths to get there, but they're now both there.

As someone who wants to get sh*t done, I don't care about user mindset and corporate vision. The Akai as we know it today spent the last *six* years stumbling out of the gate with the MPC Live, and from where I stand, I'm done making excuses to myself and others. Switching over to Push 3 with blinding speed.

EnochLight wrote:

NearTao wrote:I'd seriously like to see Roland step in with a new MV... make it a 3 way clip/arranger showdown... would be awesome.

Only if Roland does an ACB of the JX-8P that I can load onto my System-8 first!

why would they do that when they just released the jx08 which is a good lil synth btw

I think the MV series is well and truly dead; but dam shame Korg aint drop an electribe 3 where they maerge the sampler and synth products into one unit with a better screen, that would sell boatloads.

I think th epush is good but I have little to know interest, I would of liked to see a push mini tho with maybe, but I dont like the colourful pads anymore, it just looks too toyish and the brightness is distracting

B-Wise wrote:

jpeg wrote:[]This will sperate the real mpc heads from those that just jumped on the mpc as the latest greatest beat machine.. a lot of us will want the newest coolest, some of us truly love the mpc and will go nowhere.. I've never been remotely interested in live, I have used mpc's since I was a little one and an going nowhere. I could care less, but it looks really cool.
I wonder if it sounds good for skisky, no disrespect.. just a jab, love the guy he is a beast.

er no it wont; those who want the latest and greatest will probably just buy this and keep they mpcs and juggled multiple units.

also why so concerned with the real mpc heads vs those who are just dipping into the mpc recently? as long as the product is good for ur workflow why do u care who else uses it?

the mpcs need not be part of ur pesonal ego or some status symbol its a tool

That last line was deadly.[/quote]

No it wasn't, he just assume it is about my ego, when it is not.. I'm just tried of hearing how the modern mpc is not as good as the old ones.. now fools can move on to ragging on this and leave the mpc alone. Why do you think some made up dis would matter to anybody anyway? I have read almost twenty post saying they are moving to this from the mpc so yea... Your right, never gonna happen.

EnochLight: I get your point, and I even agree that they're approaching the same peak (though I maintain that they're doing it from different directions).

The real problem (for Ableton) from my perspective is that because they were thinking DAW first, they ended up with a DAW in a box, but the box lacks the amenities of a computer, but also the amenities of a well-sculpted standalone machine.

And then the price comes into it. Seriously, Ableton? You're pitching something that costs twice the price of a Force, doesn't even do everything that Ableton will do better, on a cheaper laptop, and doesn't have an SDcard slot, phantom power, only has one USB master slot (from what I understand) ... I'm not feeling the hardware love here.

In fact, unless I were to be the kind of guy to grind up printouts of Ableton tutorials into a protein smoothie and drink it to gain those Ableton powers for my WikkidBeetz I don't see the value for money love either. I can literally buy a much better equipped laptop, or a Force, plus a Linnstrument, for less money.

I just think that their design perspective led them astray.

jpeg mentioned the vision of an Electribe 3. Well, I've been grumbling and grousing about how KORG should produce a Supertribe for ages now, so I totally agree with him, but I've given up hope on that end.

It would still rock, though. And they could probably do it cheaper than the Push 3, too.

kja wrote:This will sperate the real mpc heads from those that just jumped on the mpc as the latest greatest beat machine.. a lot of us will want the newest coolest, some of us truly love the mpc and will go nowhere.. I've never been remotely interested in live, I have used mpc's since I was a little one and an going nowhere. I could care less, but it looks really cool.
I wonder if it sounds good for skisky, no disrespect.. just a jab, love the guy he is a beast.

jpeg wrote:er no it wont; those who want the latest and greatest will probably just buy this and keep they mpcs and juggled multiple units.

also why so concerned with the real mpc heads vs those who are just dipping into the mpc recently? as long as the product is good for ur workflow why do u care who else uses it?

the mpcs need not be part of ur pesonal ego or some status symbol its a tool

B-Wise wrote: That last line was deadly.

kja wrote:No it wasn't, he just assume it is about my ego, when it is not.. I'm just tried of hearing how the modern mpc is not as good as the old ones.. now fools can move on to ragging on this and leave the mpc alone. Why do you think some made up dis would matter to anybody anyway? I have read almost twenty post saying they are moving to this from the mpc so yea... Your right, never gonna happen.

It wasn't a diss more like pointing out his observations & it wasn't really directed at just you, but your ego may have blinded you that & took it personally when Jpeg was speaking in more general terms. Your reply to me only further reinforce the point he was making about MPC ego attachment.

A person without that MPC ego:
- wouldn't bought up their childhood love for the MPC & how no matter what else comes out that they're not going nowhere. This means you have a very high level of brand loyalty.

- wouldn't have even care to make a reply of what I thought was good point that someone else made.

- wouldn't had called users fools & said now they can leave the MPC alone. Which reminds me of that meme, you know the one. This is brand defensive

- wouldn't had gotten tired/upset over reading just 20 posts on the web & then ask me why I thought his opinion would matter to anybody. So nobody's else's opinion matters but yours. Wow

I stand by what I said about his deadly point, but you can try harder to convince me otherwise. Though I think it's best to move on & follow your own point about nobody opinions matters.

jpeg wrote:

EnochLight wrote:Only if Roland does an ACB of the JX-8P that I can load onto my System-8 first!

why would they do that when they just released the jx08 which is a good lil synth btw

That's my point - we've been asking for an ACB JX-8P (for the System-8) for years - YEARS - yet Roland's marketing peeps at KVR and Facebook just keep saying "we hear you" or "we've added it to our WEEKLY feature request log". And they did the JX-08 because the Boutiques are good money makers for them, so it made sense. I don't expect to see an ACB JX-8P; Roland is that cruel. But myself and many others keep requesting it, so we'll see what happens. The System-8 is still in production and still being sold in shops, so there's always hope.

Koekepan wrote:And then the price comes into it. Seriously, Ableton? You're pitching something that costs twice the price of a Force, doesn't even do everything that Ableton will do better, on a cheaper laptop, and doesn't have an SDcard slot, phantom power, only has one USB master slot (from what I understand) ... I'm not feeling the hardware love here.

Honestly, the (base Push 3) price isn't bad at all - it's pretty damn good when you consider the base Push 3 is just $200 USD more than what the Push 2 launched at, yet it also includes a quality MPE controller and full audio interface with ADAT capability. That alone is easily worth $200 USD, IMHO. Even $400 more. As for the standalone Push 3, yeah - that extra $1000 USD over the base is a hard sell, but - hear me out - you're getting a modularly upgradable (and user serviceable) standalone machine. Being able to easily switch out the battery, CPU, RAM, and main SSD is pretty incredible and an industry first for this class of gear.

But - BUT - the fact that it only comes with Live Lite (which caps it at 16 tracks) was a cheap shot, IMHO. Ableton deserves a smack on the wrist for that shit, and I say that as an actual Live 11 Suite owner. So.. yeah, I'll concede the standalone Push 3 is overpriced.

Koekepan wrote:In fact, unless I were to be the kind of guy to grind up printouts of Ableton tutorials into a protein smoothie and drink it to gain those Ableton powers for my WikkidBeetz...

LMAO!!! Yeah, Ableton Live isn't exactly the easiest DAW to get around, that's for sure. I've used it for years and even I struggle sometimes. That said, I also had a similar experience when I got my first Force. YMMV...

Koekepan wrote:EnochLight: I get your point, and I even agree that they're approaching the same peak (though I maintain that they're doing it from different directions).

The real problem (for Ableton) from my perspective is that because they were thinking DAW first, they ended up with a DAW in a box, but the box lacks the amenities of a computer, but also the amenities of a well-sculpted standalone machine.

And then the price comes into it. Seriously, Ableton? You're pitching something that costs twice the price of a Force, doesn't even do everything that Ableton will do better, on a cheaper laptop, and doesn't have an SDcard slot, phantom power, only has one USB master slot (from what I understand) ... I'm not feeling the hardware love here.

In fact, unless I were to be the kind of guy to grind up printouts of Ableton tutorials into a protein smoothie and drink it to gain those Ableton powers for my WikkidBeetz I don't see the value for money love either. I can literally buy a much better equipped laptop, or a Force, plus a Linnstrument, for less money.

I just think that their design perspective led them astray.

jpeg mentioned the vision of an Electribe 3. Well, I've been grumbling and grousing about how KORG should produce a Supertribe for ages now, so I totally agree with him, but I've given up hope on that end.

It would still rock, though. And they could probably do it cheaper than the Push 3, too.

You get it bro, the push is not what I want or need as a standalone user that's stuck on the technological limitations of the 90s. The touch screen & modern improvements is now a major part of my work for the brain of my setup which is the Force. Everything else can be old-schoolish like the MC-707, but still powerful.

Now, if y'all gonna bring up KORG , I am obliged to mention the Yamaha RS7000. Now, if there was ever a Groovebox that could use an update & kill the game, it would be that. It has features that the pre-2017 Akai devices still don't have. QoL things like track & clip exchange to easily move stuff around. Behringer, are you interested in making some easy cash?...Clone & modernized the RS7000.