Akai Force Forum: Everything relating to the Akai Force, the new 64 pad, clip-based standalone sampler/groovebox from Akai. While not an MPC, it shares many similar software features to the MPC X/MPC Live including the same underlying code-base.
By Ronnymonkey Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Hello Everyone,

I am a user of MPC live and thought. He, lets buy a force to be able to arrange on it.

I have had the force now for 3 weeks and its collecting dust. My muscle memory from the mpc won't work. Just a simple recording is very difficult to perform. What a dumb owner i am.

Not intuitive. It's like ableton. Not made for my brain. Multiple buttons to push to perform a simple thing like recording to arrangement . Lot's of miss firing so it still records to clip. After i succesfully recorded a sequence on arranger mode i go to editing and the editing resolution only lets me cut in certain places. I have to learn this machine from scratch. I didnt expect this.

Clicking away in menu's. Thinking about sending it back. Thought i make one thread about it to see if it can change my mind.

Have a nice day and thanks to contributing.
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By MPC-Tutor Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:17 pm
The Force is definitely not an MPC, otherwise there would be little point in it existing. Same software building blocks, but ultimately this machine was built from the ground up with those building blocks to mimic the workflow of Push, hence it follows a very different path to an MPC.

People assume MPCs will eventually get an arranger, but I'm not so sure, chaining sequences together is the MPC way, the arranger and global track/clip workflows are the Force way. They'll share many individual features where it's clearly an easy add-on (e.g. same plugins, autosampler etc) but beyond that they are different beasts.

So if the Force isn't gelling, you could go back to the MPC and see if you can adapt the workflow to suit the features that are there. For example you can work with a single long sequence, which is a kind of compromise linear arrangement method. And that long sequence can be built gradually (e.g. by adding more bars to a base sequence) or using 'double bars' etc. Or converted from a song for a more hybrid approach.

Or approach the Force with a less MPC-orientated mind and embrace the different workflow.
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By 64hz Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:21 pm
I just start with makin clips aka sequences and at some point I'll record them to the arranger and start working from there. I understand the frustration but just see all those little clips like little sequences you can vary with as much as you want.
By HouseWithoutMouse Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:45 pm
It's not quite Ableton yet. I've been bumping into some of the same obstacles, even though I only have very little MPC experience. In Ableton, you can switch between session and arrangement like, "now I work in arrangement mode", and "now I work in session mode". You don't have to have anything in the session view at all, and a lot of people never use the session clips. But in Force, there's no real arrangement mode, in the sense that things like recording would work differently. Recording into arrangement is kind of a different, separate function. The arrangement is there in the background, and you record into it as a separate work phase towards the end of your project.

It seems that you're not even supposed to start a project from scratch and build everything straight into the arrangement. The workflow they apparently had in mind is, the arrangement is an arrangement OF THE CLIPS you have under your launch buttons. Or even more like, a recording of a performance of the clips.

My first thought was to try and build songs straight into the arrangement, but that just doesn't work. I've ended up not using the arrangement pretty much at all, except as a tool for recording my song blocks, so I can do an audio mixdown.

It doesn't look like it would be impossible for Akai to turn the arrangement into an actual workable full song timeline workbench that Ableton's arrangement is. But many changes and new features are needed for that. As it is currently, the supported workflow is: (1) create your song as launch clips, (2) record a performance of the clips into the arrangement, (3) edit, fix, add automation. Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

Or, maybe I need to take that back slightly. Yes, you CAN record straight into the arrangement. Of course you can, that's what you do with your clips when you record them into the arrangement. But where do my MIDI events go? They are "burned" straight into the track, without a container clip. Or actually, the whole arrangement track is one big clip.

Quote from the manual
For each track in Force, you can play a clip or play the linear arrangement, but never both at the same time.


See? Clips or linear arrangement ... but the thing is, the linear arrangement doesn't even CONTAIN clips. What comes to MIDI stuff, the linear arrangement track IS ONE BIG CLIP.

How are you supposed to build an entire song from raw MIDI notes, without blocks to move and copy? You probably realize how awkward that would be, and then you build your song blocks as clips in the launch thingy, and finally burn them into the arrangement. Then there's the audio tracks. Audio tracks do get some sort of blocks, but how am I supposed to work with them if there's not even a cross-fade facility, to get seamless transitions? If my audio clip needs internal time-correction like audio-quantizing, how does one do that? The old MPC sample playback way - chop and slice, play it with the sampler.

Summary. If you think of the "record to arrangement" function as "BURN to arrangement", then that more accurately represents what the function actually does.

(All that said, the arrangement's being a rather limited performance-recording and editing tool doesn't prevent me from using the Force at all. I just don't even try to make full songs straight away, I just make song buiding blocks and construction kits, for messing around with live, and as song ideas. Live improvisation is my main thing in music anyway.)
By mpc_fan_2022 Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:55 pm
Yes, I agree with @HouseWithoutMouse

A lot of people want "the force arranger" into the MPC, but aside from the graphics, the force arranger is essentially just a big MPC sequence, with a different user interface.

It's not something where you can arrange audio or midi clips just like Ableton Live. Obviously, the MPC does not have "MIDI clip" launching at first place while the Force does.
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By SnowMetal Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:12 pm
I am a long-time MPC user. I've owned and used the 60mkII, 3000, 2000, 2000xl, both black and blue 1000, also JJOS, 4000, Touch, Renaissance and Live. That said, I'm also a decades-long Ableton Live user and Trainer. I purchased the Force because it feels like Ableton Live's ugly sister, and my chagrin with the unit is that it doesn't function enough like Live, lol.

I can see why you find it daunting if you are coming from a solely-MPC workflow, and especially if you don't like Ableton Live. Perhaps get out while you still can, and try Maschine+? Their new firmware looks like it solved a lot of problems.
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By Koekepan Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:40 pm
The Force has a particular approach to the workflow, and if that works for you it's great.

Try this: Set up your background and rhythm layers in clips, and record them into the arrangement view. Then, in the arrangement view record your solo live. Then use the grid tools to edit the recording in the arrangement, then mix and render.

Easy, quick and effective.
By HouseWithoutMouse Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:37 pm
MPC-Tutor wrote:So if the Force isn't gelling, you could go back to the MPC and see if you can adapt the workflow to suit the features that are there. For example you can work with a single long sequence, which is a kind of compromise linear arrangement method.


I don't know MPC very deeply, or Force for that matter, but to me it seems that Force's Arrangement is pretty much exactly like a single long MPC Sequence. Just with a newly programmed graphical view with editing functions. Are there some fundamental functional differences? A Sequence has multiple tracks, each of which contain events such as MIDI notes. Each track has a Program. Audio tracks probably have some kind of a simple program that plays wav files. And a Sequence has loop points just like the arrangement etc. What's the difference?

Is there a fundamental reason why Force's arrangement view couldn't use an MPC Sequence as its underlying data?
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By NearTao Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:51 pm
Presumably it cannot do this because it is not programmed that way.

My guess though is that the Force cannot use the MPC Sequence method, because a Sequence in the MPC is a very distinct single unit, with whatever track information is playing for that sequence, where as the Arranger on the Force is more malleable, and you can mix and match clips wherever you want on the Arranger view.

If you have both device though, I suspect that there's probably a reasonable way to play your sequenced tracks from the MPC out to the Force, and have the Force record that sequence data in whatever order you wanted using Song mode on the MPC, and capturing it to clips on the Arranger, but I'm just taking a wild guess.
By HouseWithoutMouse Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:29 pm
From what I can see, Force works like an MPC with the following changes:
- Each of Force's Clips is a track in a sequence.
- Sequences are shown as launch button rows.
- All tracks with the same number (column number) use the same Program in all sequences (rows), the track number's own assigned program. Track with number 1 is always routed to Program number 1 in all sequences. This way, we can equate Track and Program, and we can stop using the word "program" in the MPC sense. What used to be Drum Program is now a Drum Track, and what used to be a Keygroup Program in MPC can now be called a Keygroup Track.
- There's a Special Sequence called "arrangement". It's like Sequence 00. If you activate the "Show arrangement in clip matrix" option, you can see the special zero sequence as the top clip row of the matrix, where it indeed actually is internally.
- It's possible to play tracks from different sequences simultaneously, though only one for each track index (column). For each track index (column), you can select from which sequence (row) it plays. Or you can select that it plays from the arrangement i.e. sequence zero.

In short
- Force Clip = MPC Track (with routing hard-wired to a certain program index number)
- Force Clip row = MPC Sequence
- Force Track (clip colum) = MPC Program index number
- Force Arrangement = MPC Sequence 0

Audio tracks use a new type of Program you can't select for MIDI-like tracks, because the event data fed as input to the "Audio Program" is not MIDI-like.

Add a few new views displaying the stuff, and that's it, there you have Akai Force. So far I haven't seen anything that would suggest that wouldn't be what's actually behind the scenes. IMO what I speculated above would be the most logical and cost-effective way to build something that looks and works slightly differently but retains compatibility and common code between Force and MPC. It wouldn't be very wise to re-program basic elements, if existing things can be re-organized with relatively few tweaks.

If that's how it's done, it would also explain why there are no Clips in the Force arrangement and MIDI events are placed directly on the Force track without a container. That's because each arrangement track is one clip, namely the clip of row 0, i.e. "track of sequence 0" in MPC terms.

Some things like the relationship sequence = clip row don't feel completely 1:1, but changes and limitations like "only one Program for track index number" have been made anyway, and overall, this feels like a doable and natural mapping between the two products.
By Ronnymonkey Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:07 am
Thank you people so much. Your posts gave me much insight on how to proceed. Thinking about recording differently next time. Into clips. Lets see how this clips matrix works and after that, jamming the clips into arranger mode.

Lets see what comes out of it.

I see the new update of the MPC also allows for loading multiple projects. Ill keep the Force to get to know it a little better. Perhaps a change of workflow is just what i need.
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By MPC-Tutor Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:45 am
Ronnymonkey wrote:I see the new update of the MPC also allows for loading multiple projects.


No, that is not what my understanding of that feature. A set list is simply a list of project browser shortcuts that can be used to quickly load a project by tapping the shortcut (rather than having to navigate through your disk for it). But, as is the current limitation, it will simply replace the existing project. You can only have 1 project in memory.
By HouseWithoutMouse Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:12 pm
Some more findings about the relationship between the arrangement and clips.

- The Arrangement Length and looping affects the playback of clip matrix clips, even if you haven't touched the arrangement. If arrangement loop is not on, and your arrangement playback position reaches the end, all the clip matrix clips will stop. (Why? What technical or musical sense could that possibly make.) Anyway, Default Arrangement Loop is enabled by default, so many users might never encounter the clip-stopping. Then again, if they have disabled the loop without knowing the consequences, they might be like, "FTW just happened, all my clips stopped for no reason". In Ableton, it is not a problem to play past the invisible end-of-arrangement. Why is it a problem for Akai.

- Whenever the arrangement playback position (which you can't see unless you go to the arrangement view) loops, the Arpeggiator's note sequence resets. This is annoying, because it breaks the arpeggiating rhythm pattern and it happens at a random moment. Luckily, the arrangement and its loop can be set quite long, like 128 bars. If I recall correctly, the same thing happened with the MPC's Sequences, but it was much more annoying, because I tended to use sequence lengths of 4 or 8 bars, and the rhythm pattern kept breaking all the time. If I hold down three keys or pads, then the arpeggiator should keep repeating 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-... The resetting can be stopped by disabling Arrangement Loop, and then the arpeggiator will keep going, but then all my clips stop when the invisible arrangement playhead reaches the end.
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By Koekepan Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:46 pm
- Imagine that your clip playback were completely unanchored to the arrangement.

"Hey, I'm doing this song, on this device where the arrangement of songs is totally the headline structural feature, and I set the song to a given length, but if I don't stop it perfectly when I reach the end, they all just keep playing. Forever! What gives?"

- Imagine that status data carried over all the time.

"OK, so I play the clip once, and the arp does exactly what I want. I play it twice, and then instead of starting on the root note, it just ... keeps going? Breaking with the drums, the bass, the everything else? But wait, if I start things going, then stop, edit something and start again, it starts at a random place in the arp? How the hell do I get the damn arp to start the same way every time? Is there some render-arp-to-notes feature?"

In each case the alternative is worse, from the perspective of UI design and violating the law of least astonishment.
By HouseWithoutMouse Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:57 pm
"Re: Force is not a mpc" ... Yeah, but no, but. It isn't, but then again, it is, kind of.

Here's a translation map showing my idea of what the Force's concepts mean in terms of MPC project elements, if you're familiar with MPC world. The whole thing might be done as one big Sequence with a lot of tracks (more than you can normally have in an MPC Sequence), a few new screens/views and a set of operations that restrict the routing of Tracks to the one Program assigned to that group of tracks.

Image

This sort of reorganization of project elements could even be added over an MPC, if you had an MPC secretary operator robot doing all the actual button-pressing for you and keeping the tracks ordered and routed properly. :) Clip switching would be pretty difficult though - the secretary would have to very quickly stop a track and start another one.