Akai Force Forum: Everything relating to the Akai Force, the new 64 pad, clip-based standalone sampler/groovebox from Akai. While not an MPC, it shares many similar software features to the MPC X/MPC Live including the same underlying code-base.
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By dnkygirl Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:44 am
Hi,

I'm making changes to my desk and have a real need to be able to run the transport from a controller. Is this possible? I tried programming my Morningstar MC8 to use MMC to the force and that was an epic fail. The only thing that worked was record. I abandoned trying to use the force for guitar looping because of that... it's hard to start the recording while you're holding a guitar in the starting fret position. So now I'm needing to mount the force higher than normal but still be able to stop, record, start the thing without stretching up to do it because of where the controls are on the thing. I am getting so frustrated with the lack of basic midi cc control with the force. Every device that has been designed over the past 20 years has basic cc control except this **** thing. Not midi learn... just basic midi cc number values that are assignable to a device like a normal midi device.
By allreddv Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:39 pm
Thought I would tried to help out since it looks like two threads are going trying to get this to work. I had not previously used MMC to control the force so this was my first attempt. I was able to get it to work with an Arturia Keystep Pro, both over a USB connection, and also with USB disconnected and just using a standard midi din connection,

I could start/stop and record. I am imagining you want to be holding your guitar ready to play and start recording a clip with a count in by pressing a foot controller and start playing. So if my Keystep had foot buttons instead of finger buttons, this would be working.

As long as "receive MMC" was checked on, it worked fine, and if I unchecked "receive MMC" it no longer reacted to the MMC messages, which is how it should work.

So my guess is that the most likely issue is with your foot controller settings somewhere. Most likely not sending the correct MMC code you need. I don't have that unit so I can't really test. But, I can confirm that MMC messages for play/stop/record all work when receiving standard MMC both over USB and over MIDI DIN, or at least with an Arturia Keystep Pro, but I would assume it would work with any device sending the same MMC message.

On Page 322 of the manual it list what 6 MMC codes the Force can receive and their related function. Check to see if you can see in your foot controller that these are the codes that it is sending.

What other things are you trying to control via midi CC in the Force that you are not being able to?
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By dnkygirl Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:21 am
allreddv wrote:What other things are you trying to control via midi CC in the Force that you are not being able to?


Stop, Start, Record are the only things I need honestly, but after spending hours with the Morningstar MC8 and not even seeing a single message transmission on the force side, I gave up. The manual does not provide enough information on the exact codes needed to be able to send via mmc. I found someone else in the MPC forums who was doing the same thing with a MPC LIVE 2, however those MMC codes definitely do not match the Force's setup. I was hoping that it would... I reached out to Morningstar during my trying to make this work phase and they have basic codes setup in the device that are a global standard for MMC, but none of those work. The problem is if you don't know the mappings then you can't create a function to send.

This is the manual language:

Your Force hardware can send and receive MIDI Machine Control (MMC) messages, a standard protocol for transport controls.

The Force hardware can send these messages:
Force Button
Record
Stop
Play
Data Dial, –/+
MMC Command Sent
MMC Record Strobe (when recording starts), then MMC Record Exit MMC Stop
MMC Deferred Play
MMC Locate values

To set up your Force hardware to send MMC messages to an external device:
1. Use an included 1/8"-to-MIDI adapter and a standard 5-pin MIDI cable (not included) to connect your Force
hardware’s MIDI Out to the MIDI input of your external device.
2. Press Menu to show the menu, and tap the gear icon to enter the Preferences.
3. Tap the Sync tab.
4. Tap the Send Port 1 field, and use the data dial or –/+ buttons to select Midi Out.
5. Tap the Send MMC box so it is enabled (checked).
6. Exit the Preferences.
7. Configure your other device properly so it can receive MMC messages.

The Force hardware can receive these messages:
Force Command Received
MMC Deferred Play
MMC Locate Zero, then Deferred Play MMC Stop
MMC Record Strobe
MMC Pause
MMC Locate values
Force Function
Play
Play Start
Stop
Record (Rec)
Stop
Change location in clip

To set up your Force hardware to receive MMC messages from an external device:
1. Use an included 1/8"-to-MIDI adapter and a standard 5-pin MIDI cable (not included) to connect your Force
hardware’s MIDI In to the MIDI output of your external device.
2. Press Menu to show the menu, and tap the gear icon to enter the Preferences.
3. Tap the Sync tab.
4. Tap the Receive MMC box so it is enabled (checked).
5. Exit the Preferences.
6. Configure your other device properly so it can send MMC messages.

Useless garbage with no detail as usual. This manual has been a train wreck from the start and continues to be the same with no improvements. They need to include the EXACT MMC system exclusive messages. As it is not setup to use the standard global exclusive messages. SOOO give us the codes since you can't seem to follow the standard. The Morningstar MC8 is capable of transmitting the right MMC messages if it has the right codes. I have spent alot of time programming in midi cc for most of my guitar rig's crazy dual effect processors and stereo setup. All of which had very high detailed manuals available. If I ran into an issue I was able to reach out to Morningstar for an assist. I haven't had any major issues with programming midi outside of trying to do basic stuff that just doesn't work with the force.

I hate the learn feature it needs a lot of work. I should be able to just select learn then select an area of the force that I want to control, then move the knob on my controller, not select from a small list of things within a track. Also there's no global function control. I personally would hate to have to setup each performance session with new midi control functions. I would much rather have global control over a specific function that is repeatable each time without me having to suffer brain damage when I want to use my controller.

I have a 1010music blackbox and Bluebox. These devices are far more intuitive with midi learn than the Force. I was able to use midi cc to program my blackbox to switch pads for looping, as well as stop, start, clear a pad, and play. Definitely can't do that with the force. I was able to select learn and go to the mixer settings of my Bluebox and select 1 track at a time and assign my Korg nano studio all the faders, pots for pan, and gain knob. It was painless... I can't do this with the force... it's frustrating. As much as I am using the Force there's just things that still rub me all the wrong way. When I think I can do something so basic... read that shitty manual that says it's possible and find out it's not.. it really pisses me off. The force is the heart of my standalone setup and I use it religiously to create music which I then transfer to Ableton. I really need midi features to work right and not have to spend hours researching things that should just work.

If Akai would just add midi cc to every function that would resolve many peoples problems. Transport controls included. Even a subset of the pads as well. It would be nice to basically move to the next clip, clear a clip, record, start play from using midi cc. I know this is not a big change as everything in the device has a midi cc already but it's not being advertised.
By SakisX Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:42 pm
dnkygirl wrote:
allreddv wrote: I reached out to Morningstar during my trying to make this work phase and they have basic codes setup in the device that are a global standard for MMC, but none of those work. The problem is if you don't know the mappings then you can't create a function to send.


I replied to
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=214390

" I don't think Midi Commander can send MMC messages , plus on the Force you can't assign Midi CCs for transport controls , so currently it's impossible "

There is no indication in the manual that it can send MMC
If support told you how to do it , check on a computer the transmitted messages using a midi monitor app (MidiOX etc)

PS. Try focusing on this thread , it's hard to keep track duplicated threads
By Hoekschop Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:58 pm
It should work, at least it does work with other devices.

I have hooked up a footswitch to my Axiom-49 keyboard and configured it to send MMC Play. This worked fine on my MPC Live mk1 (that I don't longer own) and also works on my Force.

Unfortunately, the command doesn't show up in the midi-monitor on the Force. So you would need connect your device to a computer and use Midi-OX to see which message it is sending.

My Axiom-49 sends (in hex): F0 7F 7F 06 02 F7

Did you also see this post? Someone seems to have made it work on a morningstar: https://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=186979&p#p1772047
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By dnkygirl Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:21 pm
The system exclusive code for the Mpc live units do not work on the force. I tried already…. Spent several hours going through the codes I found for the Mpc live and the only thing I could get to half ass work is record. It requires several button pushes before it will even start. So it seems like it’s almost the right code but not quite.
By allreddv Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:26 pm
It is frustrating when you can't gear to communicate the way you want. I will always have some issue with every piece of hardware I have, just part of the game. (ie, my keystep pros can't receive program changes which drives me nuts) I would say the Force is actually pretty powerful at handling CC. I have an insanely detailed template that sends and receives midi cc from 20 pieces of hardware. It took a lot of time to setup but now it is done and ready to go at all times.

Breaking down your issues to 3 parts, MMC Transports, Global CC control, and individual track CC control.

1. MMC Transport: while you are having issues they are issues related to the MorningStar and the Force specifically. As stated before, the transport controls work fine with other gear and I was able to setup and use within 5 minutes and had no issues. If it is really important to have transport control for you, you may want to look at using a different midi controller.

2. Individual track CC. Two parts to this. Sending CC to other gear and receiving CC from gear. As for mapping and sending CC to external gear the Force is by far the best midi controller I have seen or used. Nothing is even in the same league outside of a DAW.

As for receiving CC messages and midi learn, yes there is a lot of room for improvement but overall it is pretty good. I agree that the setup is a bit of pain. It would be nice as you said if you could you just tap a control inside the track or effect itself and hit midi learn without needing to go into the somewhat convuluded midi learn UI. However, the midi learn functionality is very deep with ability of setting up curves, momentary functionality etc. I will take the deep controllability of the midi learn over ease of use every time, just takes time to learn to use.

Everything you described as wanting to do with MIDI learn on a per track basis can be achieved, except clear a pad, I don't think you can do that, but why not just do that on the Force?

My personal two gripes about the current midi learn functionality are,

A) You can't midi learn Macro knobs. This is a huge miss since the macro functionality is so insanely powerful it would be nice to control the macro functions via a midi controller.

B) External midi knobs don't follow the parameter limits setup to knobs in the Force. If I setup the volume knob in the force to only work within a value range say from minimum 20% to maximum 70% this works within the Force. However, if I then map an external midi knob to that same functionality the external midi knob will not respect those limits and will still go through the full range of values. Another big miss, I actually think this is a bug and was not intended as it doesn't make any sense. Hopefully fixed in next update.

3. Global midi receive CC mapping: Definitely an area for improvement for the Force. What exactly are you trying to do? Maybe some of it can be done.
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By dnkygirl Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:53 pm
"1. MMC Transport: while you are having issues they are issues related to the MorningStar and the Force specifically. As stated before, the transport controls work fine with other gear and I was able to setup and use within 5 minutes and had no issues. If it is really important to have transport control for you, you may want to look at using a different midi controller."

There are no foot controlled midi controllers more powerful than the Morningstar controllers. Again, if they would provide the proper settings I would not be posting here I would be using it and happy. You can't foot control a key step pro dude or any other keyboard based controller. I would have the same issues with other foot switch units. They require either midi cc or the actual settings for the system exclusive.

"2. Individual track CC. Two parts to this. Sending CC to other gear and receiving CC from gear. As for mapping and sending CC to external gear the Force is by far the best midi controller I have seen or used. Nothing is even in the same league outside of a DAW. "

I totally disagree. I have a Blackbox and Bluebox 1010music that are far more advanced. I just select learn and touch a control on my controller and it's locked. You can't do that with the force to much interaction with the device to do something basic and some things are not assignable. Way more work needed. Yes global control is a must. I honestly will never use the force's current external midi cc assignment methods. It would piss me off having to do that for every song.... seriously. It's like dev wasn't even thinking at all about this... like for real. When you're building for a live show you want things to be consistent. You want to be able to load the next set and have it match up with the last. Not have to remember the settings for each song. I don't get why they didn't look at it like that to begin with. Complexity in a live show is a no go. I haven't seen another device which uses assignable midi cc do it like that.. everybody does it global... and let's be honest... per song has no benefit to the user.
By Hoekschop Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:12 pm
In regard to transport controls (the subject of this thread), did you check what value your device sends? I would suggest starting there and using MidiOX to see exactly what message your device is sending exactly.
By allreddv Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:16 pm
Well "dude", I wasn't suggesting you buy a keystep pro just for transport controls, my suggestion was that if transport control is critical to your use, then try to find a solution to achieve it. I took the time to test for you if external transport control is possible or if it simply doesn't work at all. So we know it is achievable because I did it and rather simply. I tested with a keystep pro, novation launch key mini, and an iPad. So unless all those units are using a secret code with Akai you know the issue lies specifically with communication with the Morningstar, or possibly all foot controllers but since no others have been tested that is not known.

It doesn't seem like you are really looking for solutions here but more just to rant how pissed you are, so I am not sure how anyone is going to help with that so good luck.

Also, just because you can do something with the Bluebox that you can't do with the Force doesn't mean it is more advanced. The list of what can be done on the Force with CC control that can't be done on the BlueBox is massive, so that to me constitutes being more advanced. I won't argue that the BlueBox has better UI as I think the Force UI for CC is shit, but rather than being pissed about the UI being shit I figured out how to maximize the power of the unit. FYI, setting up CC functions for live sets and having it being consistent without having to set it up each time is completely doable as I have done it. The initial setup process just isn't the way you would like it. It isn't the way I would want it either, your way would probably even be better, but that way doesn't currently exist Thee difference is I figured out how to get the unit to do what I needed it to do.
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By dnkygirl Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:37 am
allreddv wrote:by allreddv » Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:16 am
Well "dude", I wasn't suggesting you buy a keystep pro just for transport controls, my suggestion was that if transport control is critical to your use, then try to find a solution to achieve it. I took the time to test for you if external transport control is possible or if it simply doesn't work at all. So we know it is achievable because I did it and rather simply. I tested with a keystep pro, novation launch key mini, and an iPad. So unless all those units are using a secret code with Akai you know the issue lies specifically with communication with the Morningstar, or possibly all foot controllers but since no others


I appreciate you trying to help, but none of those are foot controllers. It's like you're purposely trying to prove it works, but it is not the same type of device controller. Trust me I have spent hours on this so yes I'm frustrated. You would be to if you have programmable gear that works with everything except the one thing that you really need it to work with. I use the force as the heart of my standalone setup. I am trying to maximize my workflow by allowing more flexibility with the transport and also be able to move the machine into a position were I am not easily able to touch the top controls. That's simply it. Nothing complex just need to be able to start the record, stop, play with my foot switched controller so I can already be ready with guitar in hand or keyboard and not have to have extra timing for the start of the recording so I can get into position to play. This is not a rant.. it's a desire that I thought was available because the manual says that it is able to do so. I wish there were a real work around, however none of the options you provided really work. It's like a waiting game from hell with the force. When I first purchased it I had to wait for basics to be added like the arranger. I appreciate the work that is being put into this machine, but after 3 years it still feels incomplete. It has lots of great things it can do and is capable of doing, however the bugs and the functionality that should be there are still an issue. I may have to switch my standalone setup to Ableton and give up on trying to have a fully dawless setup. Nothing on the market can fully perform all the functions like a daw in hardware format. I feel like the more I explore the force the more I'm disappointed.
By allreddv Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:34 am
Yeah I hear you, I can relate on that feeling of the Force, I get frustrated with it also often also because it is so close to being a 10/10 piece of hardware and IMO one of the best pieces of gear ever made, but its bugs and UI in its current state make it more like 7 or 8.

I have said in other places that I would so much rather them focus an entire update just on working out all the kinks of things it is supposed to do properly before adding new features.

Hoping the next update is a good one but I am not holding my breath. I do hope you get you foot controller worked out.
By gehil Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:50 pm
I did a lot of research and got me a M-Vave footcontroler - first the good news:
1. the M-Vave is able to "talk" bluetooth Midi and so does the Akai Force: pairing works immediately !
2. the M-Vave can send MMC commands (configured as SysEx in the M-Vave), Force understands start, stop, record, rewind
3. if configured, the Force listenes to standard Midi MMC commands (e.g. record=F0 7F 7F 06 06 F7)

Hurray you might say, but not so fast
1. MMC commands cannot be used to play or record a clip
2. cannot be used to start recording in Force-Sampler or -Looper
3. I actually didn't find anything useful to do with those MMC commands in my Force :-(

Maybe some Force guru can come up with a trick to use MMC commands for live-recording or -looping ?
(so I can use my new Midi footpedal)
By HouseWithoutMouse Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:14 pm
The few Force live loopers I've seen on Youtube either trigger things from the pads or use an external looper.

You can't overdub audio clips anyway so what's the point.

I haven't found much use for the Force's audio clip/track capabilities. Use it for MIDI sequencing, that works pretty nicely at least for some kinds of dance music.