Drum processing in MPC

Any tips on getting the most out of drum breaks within an MPC, pre-DAW. My drums are a mixture of breaks and subtle layering, and as much as breaks from records are the way to go - I want to get these things bangin and heavy as much as possible before I print to a DAW for mixing.

I'd prefer to leave any dynamic processing like compression to my DAW, so I'm thinking along the lines of parallel processing - i.e duplicating drum loops/programs and applying a wet/dry scenario - and/or reverb/delay


Any other tips on this?

Everything you mentioned that you already do are great choices. Sampled drums, layering, the benefit of outboard or ITB DAW compression after the signal leaves the MPC...all that will go a long way on it;s own.

All I would really add is on the duplication/parallel stuff watch out for phasing issues. Minor detuning or slight re-pitching can often help that so it isn't the exact same sound leading to the phasing.

I'm remembering the old Pete Rock video/magazine interview where he said coming from SP1200 to an MPC he found the low end and some other things lacking in the MPC's sound compared to the SP. He coyly was like, "well I could EQ the samples as I sample them into the MPC..."

But like I said sounds like your methods are already solid. Maybe other posters can mention specific outboard stuff they use with MPC's in the manner PR described the Eq'ing. (I only have the EQ's on my mixer, I do FX in the box/DAW as well)

i would say that if your using alot of library drums, or drum breaks even, that compression really shouldnt matter that much, i would say it matters wayyy more so for live drums than it does for sequenced drums. i would spend more time getting your drums sounding good via layers and stuff in the mpc, then just eq and add reverbs/delays as needed to get em sitting right in the mix. then as a creative effect, you could maybe trying some parallel compression in the DAW, but i wouldnt use it as a "these drums arent knocking at all so im gonna fix it with parrallel compresssion" type of thing. if that were the case, i would go back to sample selection and find some better drum samples to begin with.

the reason i usually say no to compression on hip hop drums is that with sequenced drums, there really isnt the subtly or nuances of a live player. furthermore a lot of the time your using 1-3 different snares and 1-3 differnt kicks that are both around the same level in the first place. point being, there inst usually alot of need for "dynamics evening," in sequenced drums, which in essence is what a compressor does; so why use it?

i do think there is a place for adjusting tonality in compression, but in this case, there are so many better things you could use for adjusting the tonality of your drums, think of the painstaking (i know for me anyway) adjustment of hihat, kick and snare levels (i usually use full level, then adjust afterwards) to get them sounding less robotic. i see it as, you want to keep those sublties that you made, and overcompression will just leave them sounding dull lifeless. thats the last thing i want to do after i just spent 30 minutes adjusting the levels of all my drum sounds.

if you want an over compressed sound for your drums, i might even rather compress the drum break itself before chopping it, so afterwards you can still adjust your levels without worrying about killing your dynamics.

with that being said, some light compression might be just the thing you need for something like a drum bus to glue together/add continuity to your drums in your mix, (ive been thinking of doing this lately) but dont overdo it. light compression on the master fader can also go a long way, but i wont do this unless im either
A. releasing an instrumental beat or
B. have a full song mixed with vocals and everything.

hope this can help give you some ideas.

make sure you're tuning your drums to fit your song. this is so often forgotten and it makes an amateur's drums stick out like a sore thumb.

also if you're going for natural sounds, be sure that you're grabbing multiple hits of the same drum and playing them velocitatively. alternate your snares and hats. lay off the TC a bit.

I personally like compression in my mpc ... the master compressor if set right can make the drums pump or breath like in and out up and down. i like short attacks and whatever on the ratio then play with the threshold until it pumps. not good for everything but i like in some cases.

compression is polarizing though. It can be beautiful in some cases and down right ugly if u dont know what ur doing.

Interesting thoughts here.

Generally, if I use compression on a sample it is always parallel compression. The huge benefit of this technique is you retain the original transient and dynamics, and then blend in the compressed version over the top. If done correctly you can add a lot of punch and sharpness to drums.

On the layering scenario, I have experimented compressing a layered kick with a sampled kick together with varying results. At the end of the day though, any compression will reduce dynamic range and alter a natural feel to your sampled break or whatever your using.

If I use a sample as a bass line, then I will generally compress this - but I am speaking of course about processing in a DAW.


I think another thing to consider here is layering breaks, like producers like Marley Marl did back in the day. It wouldn't be surprising to hear at least 2 different breaks being used on one track.

1.) Sample LOUD

2.) Chop tight.

3.) Layer matching drum samples that compliment each other.
(e.g. Layer a snare with some punch in the attack point with a snare with a nice tail.)

4.) Tune

5.) Filter

6.) Set the envelope.


But it all starts with finding a good drum break/ drum hit that matches the beat.

Nym wrote:make sure you're tuning your drums to fit your song. this is so often forgotten and it makes an amateur's drums stick out like a sore thumb.

also if you're going for natural sounds, be sure that you're grabbing multiple hits of the same drum and playing them velocitatively. alternate your snares and hats. lay off the TC a bit.

nym, do you tune all your drums to the key of your tracks? or are you talking about more of a rough tuning just to get them to mesh better? im always wondering about tuning drums, but alot of them are atonal, so i wonder what others process's are.
i really agree with tuning the kick or at least the sub part of the kick to the root note of the key of the track though, i think that can really bring things together sometimes.

sometimes I find it sounds kind of bad with a reverb just thrown over an entire drum break... (you mentioned reverb in the OP) but one thing I have done from time to time is... I find a good snare that is a higher note from the main snare in the beat... maybe you could tune it to an octave higher or something... anyhow, I have added a good tailing reverb on that secondary snare alone... but sometimes it could help to turn the dry signal off so you only get the result from the reverb... when your main snare hits.. this reverb from the snare might sound like it came from the main snare except you can EQ it so you dont get any low frequencies from the reverb. It might give the drum beat the vibe that reverb has, but without drowning it. I guess you could try messing with that too.. it might help.

If you only want to use the MPC (what model btw?) you can try the following:

If you're using stereo samples, splitting them in Mono L and R channels.

Let's say you have a stereo kick and split it, the L or R mono thing might have a "better" low end. So you can filter that and layer it with the other one or with the stereo one. I think you can apply the same with snares or hats to make them a bit warmer.. Though don't filter them toooo much like the kick and adjust the volume.

damien907 wrote:

Nym wrote:make sure you're tuning your drums to fit your song. this is so often forgotten and it makes an amateur's drums stick out like a sore thumb.

also if you're going for natural sounds, be sure that you're grabbing multiple hits of the same drum and playing them velocitatively. alternate your snares and hats. lay off the TC a bit.

nym, do you tune all your drums to the key of your tracks? or are you talking about more of a rough tuning just to get them to mesh better? im always wondering about tuning drums, but alot of them are atonal, so i wonder what others process's are.
i really agree with tuning the kick or at least the sub part of the kick to the root note of the key of the track though, i think that can really bring things together sometimes.

think the key word is here is "sometimes"

tuning drums is certainly not absolutely necessary to avoid sounding like an amateur, and i'd be so bold to say that making claims like that is to be making amateur claims.. or just about any rule that is applied on everything that suggest things like "you have to do this, or you are an amateur (insert method here)" and just observing forums for long enough and you will find people stuck in a belief that things has to be done in a certain way or else they are doing it wrong, basically just clinging on to something they have heard or read in a tutorial.. kinda like conforming to a template even though it wouldn't always work.

not only is it false, but it also holds you back, because you are droning along like a robot doing things without first having made a proper justification to do it..

its as bad as "you have to compress this or that" or "you must not have your monitors lying down" or "you must use this or that tool" or "you must use this or that sound or this or that note" ...and a long list of other examples that is claimed has to be done.

there is lots of music that would get ruined if the drums were to be tuned to everything else, and many times where doing so would make things sound unnatural and synthetic instead, or ruin the drums in other ways if you are forcing them into a different pitch just because you want the pitch to fit everything else, rather than doing it to get the individual elements to sound good.. in which a case of clashing elements, i'd rather completely swap that drum instead of changing its pitch and compromise the individual sounds as an attempt to make the whole sound better.... and obviously other times where not doing it would have the drums clash badly with melodies etc, in which case it definitely is justified.

but there certainly is no set rule that always applies.. personally i wouldn't ever do it unless i had a good reason to want the drums to be an actual part of the melody.. but at that point, i write the melody to incorporate the drums accordingly, like when using taikos or toms to create a bassline for example.. then they are not just drum hits that provide a rhythm, they are also an actual part of the melody.. but there is so much music out there where this does not apply well or at all.


..........

as for the original post in the thread, i guess it would depend on the mpc and its features

on the 2kxl, i could not filter sounds, so i couldn't really do much to make the best of them inside the mpc.. so at that point it came down to the rhythm and the flow being the most important.. and since it doesn't have adsr, attack and decay had to do to get things to roll smoothly rhythmically when tweaking the individual hits

on the 4k however, a good choice of filters changed a lot as that helps to refine and define all hits, to bring out the sweet spots in individual sounds by reducing or enhancing certain frequencies.. to attenuate or diffuse certain hits as a part of creating a groove

but ifor people that are directly connected to a daw with their mpc, i wouldn't limit myself to the mpc when it comes to making the most of what you got.. just something like being able to use vast amount of vst's available, even if you relied of free ones only, gives you so many options to incorporate them in realtime as you are still working on the mpc.. it's awesome as you can make sure you got things sounding the way you want before you even record, and none of it is destructive when it comes to the vst's as they're used in realtime.. so in terms of being efficient, there may be quick solutions on a daw that allows you to not having to struggle with workarounds inside the mpc, so that you can get down to the creative parts more quickly.

Ibunshi wrote:but ifor people that are directly connected to a daw with their mpc, i wouldn't limit myself to the mpc when it comes to making the most of what you got.. just something like being able to use vast amount of vst's available, even if you relied of free ones only, gives you so many options to incorporate them in realtime as you are still working on the mpc.. it's awesome as you can make sure you got things sounding the way you want before you even record, and none of it is destructive when it comes to the vst's as they're used in realtime.. so in terms of being efficient, there may be quick solutions on a daw that allows you to not having to struggle with workarounds inside the mpc, so that you can get down to the creative parts more quickly.

The DAW is probably the most potent effects unit we all use, or underuse as the case may be. Destructive sampling with effects shouldn't be overlooked just because it's not 'the done thing' either.

MPCs are generally crap when it comes to effects, which in turn leads to quite a dry sound in the MP itself. Why wait to fix it in the mix? Sometimes applying an effect to a sound and resampling it can spice up the entire project. It also means there's less work to do further along in the process.

You can even de-noise a record in realtime as you're sampling it if you've got old vinyl.

^Word. I use Ableton as an FX rack/virtual MIDI patchbay in that context.

Coz wrote:

Ibunshi wrote:but ifor people that are directly connected to a daw with their mpc, i wouldn't limit myself to the mpc when it comes to making the most of what you got.. just something like being able to use vast amount of vst's available, even if you relied of free ones only, gives you so many options to incorporate them in realtime as you are still working on the mpc.. it's awesome as you can make sure you got things sounding the way you want before you even record, and none of it is destructive when it comes to the vst's as they're used in realtime.. so in terms of being efficient, there may be quick solutions on a daw that allows you to not having to struggle with workarounds inside the mpc, so that you can get down to the creative parts more quickly.

The DAW is probably the most potent effects unit we all use, or underuse as the case may be. Destructive sampling with effects shouldn't be overlooked just because it's not 'the done thing' either.

MPCs are generally **** when it comes to effects, which in turn leads to quite a dry sound in the MP itself. Why wait to fix it in the mix? Sometimes applying an effect to a sound and resampling it can spice up the entire project. It also means there's less work to do further along in the process.

You can even de-noise a record in realtime as you're sampling it if you've got old vinyl.

yessss, and i dont even use the fx on the 4k, i have tried them out a few times, but with the easy access, usability and versatility of plugins, i just see no need to use the mpc's own fx anymore.. it has become slow and awkward in comparison, and not so much in the good way, where you may be able to argue that the limitations helps creativity.. but limitation can also just be of the kind that doesn't do much more than slowing you down.. and that's how i see it in this case.. i don't think the mpc fx are useless or bad, just that they don't serve their purpose as well as the plugins does.. but that's because i always have the mpc hooked up to the pc, and cubase is always running in the background when i sit and work on the mpc, as the sound goes through it.. and its so easy to slap a plugin on a channel and make use of that as well as doing tweaks on the mpc.. so you got an awesome creative tool with the mpc when it comes to getting ideas down, then you got the same on the computer, but with processing.. and they both combine and work so well together in many different kinds of setups... its kinda hard to not love the shit out of that!

i def feel that about the tuning of the drums, thats part of the reason i was asking about it actually. i always wonder about others use of tuning the drums. i had a thread last year about drum tuning, so and i tired to soak up as much info as i could there. i have found that tuning drums doesnt matter so much as sound selection does, but it can def add something cool to your tracks when used right.

my favorite thing tuning wise to do is put the kick to pitch of the root note, but most times its usually an extra step that i dont do because i work all inside the mpc now. its cool to work this way, but i also sacrifice alot of effects and such because i am using it without anything else.
if my drums are clashing with the melody, ive found that it is usually better to just find new drum sounds rather than play with the pitch of that certain drum for too long. it is cool to find new sounds using the pitch though, you can change a boring sound to something that works great if you just tune it up or down a bit, its pretty cool because a lot of times i wouldnt have thought that sound could actually sound so different after just tuning up or down. i especially like playing with the pitch of drums if i am doing layering in the mpc. ive found that it takes a little more time to get them sounding right with each other sometimes though.

thats dope that you guys have all your audio running through your daw and you can effect it while you are making your beats, sometimes i wish my setup was more like that, but i like making beats on the couch too much

if i ever get a bigger mpc or an mv though, im probalby gonna have it linked up to my comp like that, it would be pretty cool.