Tracking Out From The Mpc to Pro-Tools (Volumes)

Until something is baked in levels and faders are meaningless in the digital realm... If you are recording or exporting you want as close to 0db as you can. Anything in between is irrelivent, that's why you can go in most daws and choose a VU offset for the meters, until you clip on the export its all just indicators relative to one another and not the actual 0db wall where clipping occurs.

As far as the proper the level to mix things at that's all relative two, because your amplitudes will be summed in the end. So if you have one single stereo track having your level at -20db wouldn't make sense, way too much headroom. But if you have lets 50 tracks you might want even more headroom than padding everything at -20db because the sum of all the levels might be 30db above each individual channels db reading.

Wal Martian wrote:

m56p87 wrote:... If you are recording or exporting you want as close to 0db as you can.

To each his own. All the mastering engineers I've worked with request wav's with some headroom.

did they give you a reason why they simply couldnt create the headroom themselves? all you have todo is slide the desired fader downward.....

Wal Martian wrote:I'm done with this thread.

...after posting a whole lot of info that doesn't really relate to recording levels.


Recording input signals at close to 0dBFS is in no way related to CD loudness wars, and a lot of the info you have cut and pasted (like the info from Bob Katz) relates to modern compressed/limited mixes/masters having no dynamic range and being pushed up to 0dBFS, which is not related to input signal levels at all.

After one of the links you posted had a guy going on with absolute cr ap about how AD converters have some sort of sweet spot at -18dBFS, and that the specs of the audio interface having a -10dBV output level being somehow related to the recording level/quality, I gave up looking at them. You just have to read through the comments on that page to see how one guy talking cr ap on the internet can lead to a whole lot of people having incorrect beliefs about what is going on.

You are confusing different aspects of signal levels in different parts of the recording/mixing/mastering process.

Headroom is great in a situation where you are recording a live performer, and they might play louder during an actual take/performance than during a level/sound check, or when a mastering engineer requests it so that his analogue mastering gear has some headroom to work with, but with recording in a sequenced/electronic instrument, it really isn't necessary, and in no way results in a mix with limited headroom.

No idea what issues caused your vocal clipping in the PTHD system that originally led you to believe all this, but you were doing something wrong at the time, if it wasn't clipping on the Pro Tools meters when recording, then any clipping/distortion in the signal was not related to the signal being too loud for the AD converters.

Spdif -6/-12 and your good

When you take a steak and cook it until it's burnt, it's burnt. If you pour ice cubes all over it, it doesn't make it more rare - It makes it a cold, wet, burnt steak. No matter what you do, it's still burnt. Just like if you record too hot.

But if you cook a steak a little too rare, you can always heat it up a bit later. You can microwave it without it turning into leather. You can pan-fry it for a few minutes and it's still a tasty, savory piece of steak.

Point is, when you use up all your headroom right away, you don't get it back by turning it down. It's gone forever. Sure, you can increase mix headroom or the headroom at the buss - But it's not going to make the track less distorted or fix the skewed S/N ratio.

This is from an article of John Scrip- MASSIVE Mastering.com
Am not an expert but it make sens!

Adam78 wrote:Am not an expert but it make sens!

No, it is bullsh it.

It is claiming that recording a hot signal, using up the available headroom, makes a sound distorted, or somehow negatively skews the signal to noise ratio.

That is not true, is not a valid analogy, confuses non-experts, and makes no sense at all.

It 'might' be referring to delivering an over compressed/limited mix to a mastering engineer, but recording hot levels when tracking, and using most of the headroom, does not make a sound distorted or negatively skew the signal to noise ratio in any way at all.

SimonInAustralia wrote:Am not an expert but it make sens!

No, it is bullsh it.

Well ill be damned

You seem to be the expert here so can you please post some links about your theory and ill be a happy amatuer. Seriously i want to know more before some more tests at home.

I couldn't be bothered finding links to anything.

That is from a mastering engineer, in the context of him receiving a mixed song that has been over-compressed and over-limited, he is saying that he can not do anything about it...

Adam78 wrote:Point is, when you use up all your headroom right away, you don't get it back by turning it down. It's gone forever. Sure, you can increase mix headroom or the headroom at the buss - But it's not going to make the track less distorted or fix the skewed S/N ratio.

This is from an article of John Scrip- MASSIVE Mastering.com

Notice that he says it is not going to make the track less distorted or fix the skewed S/N ratio?

Any idea how the track he is talking about gets distorted or has a skewed signal to noise ratio?

It is from over-compressing it and over-limiting it when mixing.

It is nothing to do with using the available headroom when recording/tracking.

It is bullsh it because it does not relate to this scenario.

It is bullsh it because it is actually talking about over-compression and over-limiting when mixing, not using all the available headroom when tracking, or really for that matter, when mixing.

Just like you can have a recorded single track that uses up all the headroom, and is also not distorted as a result, you can also have a full mix that uses up all the headroom, and is not distorted or has a skewed signal signal to noise ratio as a result.

The distortion and skewed signal to noise ratio he is talking about is due to over-compression and over-limiting when mixing, not using all the available headroom.

I am not claiming to be an expert on anything, but I know enough to see that it is both a flawed analogy, and not related to headroom when tracking, or really, to headroom when mixing.



Actually, upon reading it again, maybe he is talking about headroom when tracking, in which case he is just plain wrong...

Adam78 wrote:When you take a steak and cook it until it's burnt, it's burnt. If you pour ice cubes all over it, it doesn't make it more rare - It makes it a cold, wet, burnt steak. No matter what you do, it's still burnt. Just like if you record too hot.

Recording to use up all the available headroom, or most of it, is not cooking a steak until it is burnt, it is in no way too hot.

The recording is perfect, it is not distorted, it does not have a distorted signal to noise ratio, if that is what he is claiming, he is just full of cr ap.

No idea what the reasoning is behind the comments you quoted, but it is either out of context, or the guy has no idea.

But whats the difference between the headroom in a recorded level and the headroom that a mastering-engineer want? To just lower the fader to leave headroom isnt the same thing?

I really don't know exactly what point he was trying to make.

I can only guess that it is related to receiving an over-compressed and over-limited mix for him to master.

In that context, turning down the level does not fix the over-limiting and over-compression.

Recording onto a track, and using, but not exceeding, the available headroom, does not produce any distortion in that track or in the mix, and does not produce a skewed signal to noise ratio in that track or in the mix.

That is why I am saying it is cr ap, he is claiming that using the available headroom is creating distortion and a skewed signal to noise ratio, but it is not.

And concerning to the burned stake theory ,I dont think he mean that the audio is distorted at that stage but when you start to add plugins and pushing the levels up harder during mastering its going to be noticeable.

And lower the track faders is not going to help so much if you dont go really really low. Its all mathematical and theres is no benefits at all to record so hot .
The bit usage is also meh .., I think you can record lower than -40db and still remain the full 16bit spectrum.
I guess we all have different ways to get our sound right so i can just speak for myself and sometimes quote from professionals