Replaying samples with no music theory training...

I personally don't think it matters if you take music theory or not.Or have played an instrument your whole life.If you make hot tracks that you and others can enjoy....Keep doin' your thing.

cooocooo1 wrote:What's really flowers up is that the game is so flooded right now that it don't really matter, music thoery, no theory, talent. no talent, if you're in the right place at the right time and know the right person you can blow even if you BLOW!

I mean to a certain point this is true,

but if you look at the producers that stood the test of time, they all have had some sort of musical talent (sampling or composing) that can't be learned.


class.....

stryke wrote:I personally don't think it matters if you take music theory or not.Or have played an instrument your whole life.If you make hot tracks that you and others can enjoy....Keep doin' your thing.

Umm yea.. of couse, most hip hop producers arent musically trained, but ALL the great hip hop producers(Pete rocks, neptunes, dre;s) have musical talent and a "ear" that cannot be learned, it can only be enhanced(if u have the abilitity in the first place)

That was my whole point

class..

Music theory or some fundamental understanding of real music structure is a must if you would like to excel beyond the realm of hip-hop beats. Stripped down R & B only became acceptable once hip-hop layed down the format for virtually music-less music (there have been exceptions over the years aiight!). To the cat that started the thread and anybody really, I would advise some polishing up on the theory end of things if you would like to do music professionally. It provides more flexibility for your career and you don't look like a dumb ass calling yourself a producer or whatever when somebody asks you to compose music in a specific style for them.

All good things come to an end and we may see the end of making tracks as we know it on a professional basis. Music will always be there, but it is your individual ability that will keep you in the game or not. Funny thing is I love hip-hop, but compared to most other genres, compositions are created almost effortlessly in contrast to the hard work put in to all the records that cats sample from. Especially that crazy seventies sh** with string sections and one-of-a-kind historical synth patches....Fellow posters in this here thread- points well taken and noted.

**** all that

here is how you interpolate.

First..........I pretty much chop the sample and arrange it or loop it how i like it. Then i move to the part i want to interpolate.

Get use to over dubbing. Alot of times you cant do it all in one pass, unless of course you are good at playing and can hear it first time.

BUt what i have discovered, If i can hit one note............Put it in my sequence, then.........I can forget about that note and listen to the others. Then keep working like that......Feel Me? so basically focus on one tiny piece. Play it in the right spot-sequence it, then move to the next piece or note, overdeubbing.

Use the piano! even if you are interpolating a bassline, try to use a piano sound to figure out the notes. Sometimes this doesnt help, like it would be eiasier to interpolate a string sound, if you are playing a string sound. But basses are more difficult to hear. Its easy to hear a piano. This is especially true if you are trying to add your own bassline to a sample. Figure out the "key" of the sample with a piano........not a bass. Find the notes that work, then go to your bass sound and lay down the basslilne.

Listen for intervals. Okay, you might find a note that you think will work-but you are unsure, maybe because its not exactly correct because of its character-and way it was recorded. A synth piano will sound less lively compared to a live one; even if you have the same note, it might sound differant. So, play the next note, listen for the same interval inbetween the notes. If that sounds the same, then youve got the right notes-youll then have to work on getting the actual sound to be similar.

Realize there are layers in sounds, sometimes the layers are chords or create chords, or even overtones from other sounds. SO even if you have the right piano note, the bass note under it might not neccesarily be the same note or there might be a sound in there that you dont realize is creating a chord. Like if the piano and vibraphone hit at the same time. This can create differant overtones that might **** you up. So sometimes you gotta listen and relisten to get it right. Listen to how the piano sound resonates..........and if that matches, more so then the intitial attack of the piano.

interpolate without quantize on. That way you can try to also replicate the "groove"

when i think of more ill post.

Peace.

Sheer determination & hard work will only get you so far, Its like being a football/soccer player theres millions who are fit enough and can play but theres a very small percentage gets paid major money for doing it.. Cos there the ones with the talent along with the determination.. I dont think you really need to know s*** bout music thoery to produce a lot of stuff, but you definitely need knowledge an ear & rhythm... How many classic tunes do you think have been made, especially in hip hop where the producers got no idea bout music theory, bet theres quite a few.. Personally Id love to be able to play a keyboard really well but I can get by thanks to this technology s*** and knowing if a chord sounds right or not, dunno what the f*** that chord would be though.... augmented diminished major 7th, ya might as well be speaking chinese

cyrus wrote:
Use the piano! even if you are interpolating a bassline, try to use a piano sound to figure out the notes. Sometimes this doesnt help, like it would be eiasier to interpolate a string sound, if you are playing a string sound. But basses are more difficult to hear. Its easy to hear a piano. This is especially true if you are trying to add your own bassline to a sample. Figure out the "key" of the sample with a piano........not a bass. Find the notes that work, then go to your bass sound and lay down the basslilne.

Yep, thats some good advice

this is a great thread and i tried not enter it but ...

to make beats or to be a hip-hop producer you do not need music theory but it would help. God for bid if hip-hop die today and your theory/musical background is not up to par your musical career is over. period.

you cant compare pete rock, dr dre and other great beat makers/producers to prince, jimmy jam/terry lewis, and stevie wonder, you cant. i believe that prince, jimmy jam/terry lewis and stevie wonder could produce hip hop but pete rock, dr dre and others cant write the type of music that prince, jam/lewis and stevie can. that is because pete rock, dr. dre and other do not have the musical background of prince, jam/lewis and stevie wonder. period.

lets be honest, hip-hip is the simplest music to write. anyone with fruity loops, mpc, or other software/hardware can make a beat. if your beat is good enough you now become a producer. it is that simply.

next point, some individuals here have very nice equipment (project studio level) and other do not. if you have not listen to the music with high quality equipment you have missed most of the music/song. next time you go to the music store take your favorite cd and listen to it on there equipment. the point i am making is on low quality systems you miss allot of the music and when you listen to a prince songs vs. your favorite hip-hop producers songs on a high quality system you will hear the different in the quality of the music and the differents are the musical background.

my last point, when you look at music in general most great hip hop producer of the 70's and 80's are not around today, why do you think? the musical background was not there. when you look at the great non hip hop producers of 70's and 80's they are still around (i.e. quincy jones, james browns, jam/lewis, prince, michael narda walden, stevie wonder and the list goes on).

inclusion, you do not need music theory to be a beat maker/hip hop producer. you basically need a great ear, a feel of putting samples together and able to utililize you software/hardware to the fullest. without music theory you are limiting yourself. why do you think so many people are buying mpc(s) and fruity loops? because anyone can make a beat( good or bad) but not everyone can write a r&b, rock, jazz, folk, country, classical music.

i am not putting down hip hop because i love it.

"it a jungle sometime, it makes me wonder how i keep from going under. rats in the front room and roaches in the back, junkies in the ally with a baseball bat, dont push me, i am close to the edge, i'm out here trying to get ahead, aha, ha, ha"

dont get any better than that, the message.

dont sell yourself short. learn as much as possible about music and not just hip hop because your musical career will last longer with knowledge.

a question for all the hip hop producer who thinks theory is not needed.

say in the studio and next door there is a producer looking for someone to program a mpc. the producer next door needs a 12/8 groove, will you be able to handle this request? or will your respond be "well i only do hip hop".
this is where you musical background comes into play.

always remember that you are a summation of all you musical experiences therefore if your musical background is limited your music will be limited. if you believe anything else you are fooling yourself.

peace to everyone.

Just plain good song writing is not as in the mix as it used to be. Prince and Stevie Wonder are two of the best reference points on that note. Think how many 80's hits were made by Prince AND he played the instruments on a lot of them? Damn.

Also, them old pre computer mixes sound almost 3D in the right systems. I know exactly what homie is sayin right here. Plus instrument texture, etc...Even old Van Halen and other rock or pop records were mixed to a whole other standard not based on loudness or punch.

L. Tombstone wrote:Just plain good song writing is not as in the mix as it used to be. Prince and Stevie Wonder are two of the best reference points on that note. Think how many 80's hits were made by Prince AND he played the instruments on a lot of them? Damn.

Also, them old pre computer mixes sound almost 3D in the right systems. I know exactly what homie is sayin right here. Plus instrument texture, etc...Even old Van Halen and other rock or pop records were mixed to a whole other standard not based on loudness or punch.

thats in part to why i like to sample.................for the quality of the sound.

Even if you dont sample, you still gotta look at your sound more than just a beat. I think its sad that the standard has become protools and triton-not because those are bad pieces of equipment, but because people are lazy and dont fully utalize them. People have the mind set that if they use "xxx and xxx" they dont have to do more then just a good arrangement. The funny part is, something like protools or a triton has actually opened infinate possibilities and new doors to what you can actually to with your sound, but no one is using it.

We seemed to work harder and more creatively with limited shit. Now its a dime a dozen.

Im seriously scared to see what happens when our kids start making music...........our kids who grew up listening to just hiphop and electronica, and didnt grow up on the classic-great music. Not that hiphop isnt great, but its not the same kind of great.

Fu** all that!! Just playin'....yeah seriously on that note I hope to see a bigger migration toward the use of actual instruments and highly skilled musicians. They're the ones that deserve some shine for a change. That's one of my big goals for the year, reach out to more musicians to improve the quality of my production.

On the flip your right about 'greatness' or whatever, don't matter how many times cats tell me the virtues of Lil John's beats, some of it is cool, but I can only get into an 808 kit, 4 note lead sound arrangements and sweeps so much. Sometimes I want to hear beautiful chords and soul....

Your argument dosent hold any water man...

blues is the simplist music around. Every single blue song is made up of only 3 chourds.....

Its simple as hell, but u cant tell me muddy waters, BB king, etc.. arent geniouses.

for u to say hip hop isent complex is crazy..it just depends on what type of hip hop your talkin about

But that's just the music aspect, the song writing is genius and blues is saturated with soul. It can be played with one guitar or piano, or be accompanied by a full band+string section. No need to argue there is truth to all these points. True though classic, the simplest music can be as good as the most complex.

yo classic,

question #1 - take your everyday bedroom beatmaker, if bb king, muddy waters etc said ok blues in b flat or d double sharp what are the 3 chords?

question #2 - (kind of tricky but a first month theory student could answer it) what 3 chords if the key is c flat?

question #3 - what does permutation mean?

well, take any 2/4 bar loop (instrumental with drums), chop it up using recycle, load the chopped samples into mpc, load other drum samples and spend a day with some of the permutation of that loop and drum samples you will have a beat. period. no theory needed, just a sense of a/the groove. why do think all these kids are buying fruity loops? they do not even use a midi keyboard controller. why? because it is very, very, very simple. no theory needed, just $149, computer and sound card and you are a beatmaker.

back to the questions

question #4 - muddy waters and bb king also play solo during their blues songs, right?

question #5 - what type of scale would they use? penatonic, phrygian, melodic minor or blues scale?

question #6 - what is the different between panatonic, phrygian, melodic minor or blues scale?

question #7 - what note would the solo start and end with?

question #8 - what is the circle of 4th and its relationship to blues?

again beats are the easiest. period. i am not knocking hip hop but hip hop is more of what is happening in the streets than musical content. period.

last but not least, if blues is the easiest music to make and easier than hip hop and you make hip hop write a blue songs with a solo. see how it comes out. i am not trying to knock the way you make music or your believes in making music but music theory is time tested. i do not want to start a beef but a fact is a fact. music theory is here today because it can explain what is happening in a blues, pop, jazz, classcal etc song.

cyrus wrote:Im seriously scared to see what happens when our kids start making music...........our kids who grew up listening to just hiphop and electronica, and didnt grow up on the classic-great music. Not that hiphop isnt great, but its not the same kind of great.

That's a great point, I think about that all the time. When I hear a Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder or Prince(didn't he teach himself how to play all them instruments?) track I can damn near remember what moms was cookin' up in the kitchen when I heard it for the first time, I don't see my kids havin' the same memories of current music.