Logic users and protools too

Nah, striaght recording, no mixer, through hi end soundcards vs PTHD. Not VST but recording quality. I always hear a difference of sounds from source to the same sounds recorded in the computer dry, some programs do something I like, some don't. Of course, I can hear stuff that most people I find can't, so YMMV.

I didn't know that. Then again I only know one cat who uses the PC for audio.

Most of the Logic stuff I've heard is on a tricked out G5 dual 2.5 through an RME card.

cubase does have a warmer sound, a so do sonar, even more so than cubase. i like the quality of sonar, but tht program is just lacking in a lot of areas, like in the last sonar 2, you had to stop the timeline to do arrangements, liitle things bugged me out on it,


if you importing waves, as files then sound card does not matter.

the most to get out of protools is not mix in the box, every professional studio always use the direct outs in to some desk.
one engineer, actually told me tht dragging the fader in protools a considerable amount, the quality would deteriote, "crunch" right down to near enough 16 bit .
read this break down


Terrahertz
Valued Member


Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 67
Location: Los Angeles
quote:
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Originally posted by DOVESKI:
Just make sure you record loud, you got to record loud with the digi001 and mBox to pick up the full frequencies. Let the peaks hit the red. And while your at it I'd probably pick up some sort of little mixer.
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This is terrible advise never clip in digital because it will distort the sound.
Pro Tools might be a standart but it still sounds like **** when you mix inside the computer. Thats why when we use Pro Tools here we mix everything in the SSL and use Pro Tools only as a multitrack recorder and editor.

If Pro Tools sounded good inside the computer alot more pros would consider mixing in the box.

The reason for Pro Tools sounding like **** is because it uses a 48 bit "fixed" point engine. The reason Cubase SX,Nuendo,Logic.Sonar,samplitude,and other Native programs kick Pro Tools Ass in sound quality is because they use
32bit "float" point.

What this mean is that you dont have as much headroom in Pro Tools.
But thats not where it ends Pro Tools "Fixed Engine" is set where you loose
bits of data when you make dB reduction on the fader,therefor loosing bits and quality.

Thats why when we mix we use 48 outputs into the mixer and all the faders inside Pro tools set to 0 dB to keep the 24 bit wordlength threw out the whole signal path.

In the 32 bit "Float" and float being the keyword world, bringing the fader down a few or many dB's will not loose its sound quality or bit resoulution.
This happens because the recording engine gives you 8 xtra bits.
The 8-bit exponent gives the floating-point architecture an astonishing dynamic range spec of 1500 dB (8-bits = 256, and 2256 equals approximately 1500 dB) Fixed-point, with its 48-bits, gives you 288 dB of dynamic range.

However you do the math... if you've ever worked in a fixed point system you will know how difficult it is to maintain an excellent audio bit depth resolution without clipping somewhere along the path... i.e., it's extremely common that fixed-point systems end up with digital distortion due to clipping by the time you are done with a complex mix. You only need to use your ears.

BTW... those arguments saying that fixed-point is better are always made by companies that are stuck in a fixed-point world and need to find a way to justify it. Digidesign was one of these companies claiming such things for many years... but now that they support floating point when using native plugins they are finally admiting that floating point is superior.

Thanks Dan Duskin

Now onother thing when you record super loud and clip you are clipping
because the AD Converter reached its full headroom capicity.

When this happens the computer does not know how to represent the signal strengh so it clips because you over loaded the converter and therefor giving you a terrible glassy sound.

A good recording technic for people who use digital to record is to calibrate your converters. to +4dBu not dB but dBu. The reason for this is because when calibrated to +4 dBu and not -10 dBv Line level you are telling the converters to reduce input for +4 signals since there very hot signals compared to -10 signals.

And if you calibrate your converters to -10dBu you are telling your converters to increase the input for -10 signals. Therfor running a +4
signal into a -10dBu calibrated converter will overload and clip the signal.

-10 signals are usually always found on keyboard outs and the 8 indivitual out of all the MPC series Akai sampler Sequencers.

+4 signals are found on the MPC Main outs, all mic preamps and All DI boxes.

When you record in your program of choice I recomend to stay away from Sound blasters get your self a decent soundcard and decent set of converters. Get And RME Soundcard and a Apogeee Converter if you can afford it. Heck for $5,000 you can get a better sounding system then a Pro Tools HD 3 for 15,000 dollar sysem.

I have been able to sucessfully make Pro Tools sound as good as the MPC
but belive me turning your volume on the MPC is not the secret.

You want to set your volume half way. And you want your signal in Pro Tools to be halfway right in the midle thats what that line is for in Pro Tools.
The reason for this is you avoid clips and by still being in the 48 bit world you need to leave headroom for your plugins.

Think about it if your signal is at 0db. When you ad a plugin its goin to completyly **** distort. And you are going to be force to bring the fader down and therefor loose quality.

This is great advise mpire45
quote:
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Originally posted by mpire45:
Good AD/DA convertors when used at a high sampling (88.2 or 96) and bit (24) rate will offer you a recording with spacious headroom like high-end analog....Trust me on this, I work with analog and digital. But, the difference in what you have in between the source (MPC, ASR, etc.) and the destination (MOTU, PT 002, etc.). I always advise the producers that I work with to invest in a high-quality channel strip/mic pre (i.e. any Focusrite will suffice...their Platinum series sound incredible). A good channel strip (whether it's solid-sate or tube) will offer you an instrument input (bump the unbalanced signal to a balanced one), a preamp with good headroom, a compressor, an enhancer or eq, and an output with good headroom. Trust me on this, you will hear a difference in your signal...More presence and detail. I personally prefer the tube units...They offer me the sound I appreciate about analog; analog compression with added harmonics.

Bottom line, scrape up $500-1000 to invest in a good unit that will make your recordings compete with anything else done in pro studios.

Vaughan
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I run a tubetracker from the MPC 8 out into the 8 ins of the TL Audio at home using Nuendo 2,Apogee Rossetta 800 and Rme MADI.

Qick story Tubes where once the king they gain back their crown when Pro Tools became a Standard since it sounded so bad.

For any help hit me up at my email.

http://www.mpc-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13583&highlight=

excellent info! thanks,

So lets just say for instance you do a song in logic audio. Each track of your song is a logic audio file. You got it sounding the way you want no clipping nicely mixed and the song is done. If someone asks for that song in protools format, and i just open each of those logic audio files in protools, line them up correctly in the timeline then save the protools session to a cd, when the person opens that protools file on there system in their studio then the sound quality of the audio might sound crap? low in volume? just wondering

good question, i can only say, if you imported them from logic, and they clipped, then more than likely if saved as a session, it will do the same on another system.

come to thiink of it, i wave done tht already a year a go, we have a hd 192 were we at, and i saved some audio files, from audition onto cd, and imported them into thier super mac, and it was clipping like crazy(the ones i had normalised), at the time, they said they had to reinstall the systtem cause the surroound was not not installed properly, so i took it tht, was the problem, but remembering now, they did clip, the normalised ones, i dont usually anyway, to me it always seem to take away dynamics.

hmmmm.

normalizing, did you normalise?? if you have dont and try it, use the normalising in protools instead. then save tht as a wave then export from protools (wave) then into logic and play it in comparison to the normalised and unnormalised original in logic , am i clear???

i wish logic pro was the standard . But i also wish its audio editing was like protools.

i am going to try tht today.

skalawa wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DOVESKI:
Just make sure you record loud, you got to record loud with the digi001 and mBox to pick up the full frequencies. Let the peaks hit the red. And while your at it I'd probably pick up some sort of little mixer.
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This is terrible advise never clip in digital because it will distort the sound.
Pro Tools might be a standart but it still sounds like **** when you mix inside the computer. Thats why when we use Pro Tools here we mix everything in the SSL and use Pro Tools only as a multitrack recorder and editor.

Nah dog, it even says that in the manual, for instance my snares will snap into the red - no distortion - full frequency.

By the way all this audiophile talk is giving me a headache, were talking hip hop/reggae/dance music here, not fucin accoustic guitars. A little grit wont hurt your sound if you record right.

This stuff doesn't add grit, it just messes up the sound. I think terra had it right, all the majors mix on their SSL, an expensive was to make your stuff sound good, but if they're all using protools, they need it.

yeah, I hate audio editing in sequencers, I so much prefer soundforge.

analog summin. u need to send ur signal out into a hardware joint and clip it there and have it go back.

always has better resolution than digital!

i spoke to another professor today, and he basically broke down what terra said. and he also said tht those pro studios in the states never ever mix in the box anyway, p tools is just used as an advanced tape machine, with editing features. what a way to spend like 30 grand.
as a joke i told my holmes i got pro tools in the studio, and with in 4 hours i had like 15 clients wanted to come do some work i ant messing.
i hate tht, something so crap, sells it self. i wonder if i dodo in a bag, it would do the same

hey dove do you clip in p tools,

digital distortion to me sounds potatoe chips being munched.

I clip with no distortion, of course the meter isnt constantly in the red - usually my snares if they are loud will clip just enough, in the PT manual thats what it says to, occasionally hits above 0db dont do any harm.

But your prof is right tho, Pro Tools is dope because it is like a tape machine, I couldnt do my editing on Cubase or Logic with those funny bars where you cant tell what your doing. As far as the sound, I cant tell the difference between the tracks I record on PT and tracks recorded on other peoples setups....I've also had a DPS and a VS and they all sound the same. I hear more difference depending on what Im recording through not on.

cats here got the golden ears if they can hear the difference between protools and logics audio engines. then again everyone says that live and reason's engines are significantly worse than the other sequencers and i can't hear the difference there either... sooooooo do what u got to do.

u can get away with clipping drum tracks in ur daw cause the sounds are sharp and usually dirty anyway.... u got to watch out the the master out though... if that starts clipping (because ur pushing ur drum sounds up into the red) then u'll hear it on ur sustained sounds... meaning it will make ur vocals sound like dog