VHS

oops double post

Then let me help you out---

I worded myself poorly. Sounds good, nowhere near a Studer, but also worlds better than a cassette tape if youre looking for an analog sampling technique, or a finalized pre-master stereo mix. Or both.

There, I hope that clarified my poorly-worded comment earlier. You are 100% correct.

TicToc wrote:the audio might sound poor on a VCR because the tape is sharing data between audio and video.

If you fill the tape with only audio data, you get a VERY GOOD analog sound, rich and warm. Sounds WAY better than an audio cassette tape.
It's not a 2" Studer, but its close, and its an affordable, approachable way to record in analog.

Check my soundclick...all were recorded to VHS tape first.

^^^^^ yep.

Back in the day, 84-89, I used to work for GE. We got TV's and sh!t dirt cheap. I got 2 of their high end VHS HI-FI VCRS. I still think I have them Both somewhere packed away with moving sh!t. I will check, Dig them Out and Perhaps Rebuild one of them. (Belts) Let me tell you about these units.
Any old a$$ VCR, 4 heads, Hi-Fi will probably need to have ALL the Belts replaced. Rubber is only intended to last for about 5 years or so. The Belts drive all the Gears inside the units. When the Belts Slip, all kind of sh!t happens from Chewed up Tapes to Bent tape Guides..... So before you go off buying a VCR better make sure you can get a Belt kit for it.
Probably not worth your trouble...But the Older the VCR the harder it will be to get parts, BUT the Better your sound cause you will have more control over how you can Record it. (Not those Dinosaur Top Loading TApe eaters, but the Front loading GE, Marantz, Zenith types). NOt the kind with indivisual channel pots where you had to Tune Each Channel with Knife or fingernail file.
It seems like the VCR industry had started migrating to "REMOTE CONTROL DEPENDENT,ON SCREEN programming" Jants that if you lost the remote all you had was an expensive a$$ed digital clock.

The Older RCA, GE (Same company) were rated Tops for Hi-Fi back in the day. Even if the Video Head is FVCKED up, the Audio still works. BUT.....Gotta make sure the BELTS aren't Dry rotted if you buy one. Once you change the Belts and Lube the Gears (All very easy to do) you basically have a New unit except for the HEads. Clean'em....
Head range from $11 to $80 and are easy to change.

Http://www.jaytronics.com/vcrbelts.htm

The GE Hi-Fi models (vintage ones)
In the owners manual it give you Several modes of operation outside of just Video with Hi-Fi sound. It gave the option of Dubbing from an external audio source where you could actually Record video and Dub the Audio Track sperately. Thus, you could make your own Video if you want to. It also had the option where you could take an already made VIDEO and Replace the Audio with your own. And You don't need the Remote to do all this by. Right on the Front panel behind the flip down door.

I Accidently recorded The Fat Boys "My Nuts", While recording a Gilligans Island episode where a KAt was doing Card Tricks....Turned out Funny as hell!!

Jus my 222.22¢
-= BM =-

beat monkey, sounds like you know what you're talking about when it comes to VCRs. what i'd like to know is, is it true what TicToc says about the audio using the entire tape's width? or would the VCR need to be modded so that the audio went to the video track as well?

i thought that on VHS, the audio had a track all on its own, separate from the video, and that that didn't change if you take away the video source when recording?

any help appreciated.

VHS HiFi or 4 head VCR means you have 2 video heads ( for record and Playback ) and 2 Audio heads for Stereo sound Seperation which also contain the Tracking info.
It tells the VCR weather the tape was recorded in SP,LP, OR EP.
It tells How quickly to pull the tape past the drum since the tape may shrink or stretch over time.
It also lines the bands up with the heads during playback.


On the Rotating Drum which is tilted, you will see some little Dashes in 4 spots. These are the heads. That Drum rotates fast (1800 RPMs) Or 30 revolutions per second. Thats gonna give your a$$ some Tight A$$ed Audio. The Tape rides across the drum resulting in Straight line recording of audio Pcked with loads of information. The video has 500 times more information than the audio which is why the video has to use more of the tape. HiFi or Stereo VHS uses a wider amount of Tape than Cassette, But not the FULL amount. Just like the old Bell and Howell Film strip (Whatchall know bout that???..ha haha) There is the Video in the middle and the Audio Track which looked like Ink stains running on the other side of the Film. VHS does the Same by having the Audio Tracks on the edge of the Tape. Since the Audio is recorded slower than a conventional Reel to Reel or Cassette, you get a much Better Frequency Range From typically on the Low end to the upper mids..If it weren't for the tilted rotating drum, you would need a tape with 50 miles of tape to store a 2 hour movie.
The Audio, especially Stereo and HiFi is processed through Stereo Mulitplexing which is what give you that Rich Full Sound you want. Cassette recorders don't do this cause the tape moves by the record head much faster. Even though the Drum rotates Fast on VHS, the tape moves across it rather slowly. Much more information can be stored on the media which is much larger also.

Thank you for putting into words what I was trying to express!

ryssen wrote:

Antonym wrote:ie, one of those old little moniter dials...words escape me for the moment to remember what is.

VU meter?

ha hahaaa.....Yep..I Telling you man, The ones I have are the Sh!t. Before I release the Model #'s I wanna make sure I still have them. I know I can get my hands on 1 of them today. If I am successful I will tell you guys what and where to search. It has a Linear L / R VU meter with input Level control. Nasty for what you guys are trying to do. Besides, I don't know how much a Studer is, but Damn, you can get a HiFi VHS for almost Free now days. I seen places FUll of VCRs in a box that says "Damn son...Take one FREE!!" (Not in those exact words but you feel me). Take One!!
...So..having said that, I will post Pics of the FACE of the Model to look for.
There may be others too, but from experience, the 2 I have are the sh!t no doubt for Cheap Quality Audio reproduction.

TicToc wrote:Thank you for putting into words what I was trying to express!

ha haha..Ok Tic...I may not be on top of the MPC like you guys, But I know my Consumer Electronic sh!t.....It Still Feeds me to this day!

yeah cheers for the info beatmonkey! i'll have to look into this shizzle methinks!

Beat~Monkey wrote:Since the Audio is recorded slower than a conventional Reel to Reel or Cassette, you get a much Better Frequency Range From typically on the Low end to the upper mids..

...

The Audio, especially Stereo and HiFi is processed through Stereo Mulitplexing which is what give you that Rich Full Sound you want. Cassette recorders don't do this cause the tape moves by the record head much faster. Even though the Drum rotates Fast on VHS, the tape moves across it rather slowly. Much more information can be stored on the media which is much larger also.

This speed thing seems a little upside down. Slower movement across the recording or playback head should result in that less information can be stored per inch and the noise level should be higher to.
This principle applies in the field of reel to reel tape recorders and also vinyls. Those here putting out wax or spinning records knows that a 45 gives both a hotter and cleaner output than a 33.
When open reel tape machines are used the principle is that the faster it transports the tape over the heads, the better the quality gets. It speaks for itself: if one second of audio is recorded to one inch of tape or if it´s recorded over three inches of tape, which of the two alternatives do you think gives greatest resolution and headroom?
Pro studios and engineers often trim their reel to reels to go faster than the manufacturers settings, this way they can record hotter and better controll the saturation of the tape.

The slower the tape moves, the faster it´ll get saturated (which in this case means less linear, distorted and muddy), it´ll also casue the signal to noise ratio to drop considerably. Now, thats not a bad thing in my eyes, I´m pretty fond of coloration by dirt and artefacts, I´m just pointing out that slower tape transport isn´t good for Hi Fi sound decreases the amount of information per inch/tape, not the opposite.

A simple test is comparing audio on a VHS recorded with SP to a VHS recorded with LP, which moves half as fast and see which one sounds best.

Edit: All you people with your MPC rolling at double the tempo should see this pretty clearly.

think he said that the heads are spinning fast, so the amount of information recorded is greater.

ryssen wrote:Those here putting out wax or spinning records knows that a 45 gives both a hotter and cleaner output than a 33.

Only if the 45 is a 7 inch. 12-inch 45s dont have a noticeable sound difference than the same song sounds on a 12-inch 33. The difference is in the size of the grooves on a 7-inch as opposed to the speed being at 45.

If you think of a movie being filmed in slow motion, the way that is done is that it is recorded too fast (more frames per second than usual) and then played back at normal fps. This results in more images in a shorter period of time or...slow motion.

The same should apply to music. Faster moving tape should record more data, and that is why SP mode (2 hour mode= FASTEST movement of tape) gives the best, richest, cleanest sounding recording. Tape is moving faster so more data is being recorded to the tape per second/frame.

Mr modnaR wrote:think he said that the heads are spinning fast, so the amount of information recorded is greater.

No, head spins fast but the tape moves slower. Check the quotes in my post.

ryssen wrote:

Mr modnaR wrote:think he said that the heads are spinning fast, so the amount of information recorded is greater.

No, head spins fast but the tape moves slower. Check the quotes in my post.

yeah so the relative speed is high = more info stored!

TicToc wrote:Only if the 45 is a 7 inch. 12-inch 45s dont have a noticeable sound difference than the same song sounds on a 12-inch 33. The difference is in the size of the grooves on a 7-inch as opposed to the speed being at 45.

Bull. Ask any mastering enginer if he can cut a 33 as hot as a 45, if he says yes I´d question if he knew what he was doing. There is a simple reason why 12 min of audio on 33 rpm takes half the time of a side of a 12" while 12 min at 45 rpm takes about the full side.

Ther shouldn´t be any reason to cut 45´s if they wasn´t hotter and sounded better, then everbody should cut 33´s as you get a lot more music per side.

TicToc wrote:If you think of a movie being filmed in slow motion, the way that is done is that it is recorded too fast (more frames per second than usual) and then played back at normal fps. This results in more images in a shorter period of time or...slow motion.

Exactly my point, a slowing down in the recording process would give this twitchy strobe feel in playback.

TicToc wrote:The same should apply to music. Faster moving tape should record more data, and that is why SP mode (2 hour mode= FASTEST movement of tape) gives the best, richest, cleanest sounding recording. Tape is moving faster so more data is being recorded to the tape per second/frame.

Exactly my point, this is what I written in my post. Exactly the opposite of what Beat~Monkey said as you thanked him for clearing up and explained what you wanted to express.