Mixing ITB (in the box) vs OTB (out of the box)

I have had the discussion with a few others recently about the "best way to mix"

this in reference to mixing ITB vs OTB

one problem that always comes up is digital summing.....

to the uninitiated this occurs when you route your multitrack session to a master fader completely in the DAW

Everytime the mix changes when I mix ITB....this can be quite frustrating..... forcing me to mix to compensate for the change prior to the bounce

I have worked in studios that have APIs to mix a PT session OTB....the difference is not subtle (but I doubt many in here have the $$$$ to purchase one for their project studio, the only time i get to use this level of gear is when i work for hire on non-rap projects)


So my question to those here is.........


Are any of you routing your Multitrack mix to a mid-level ($1k-$3k)analog desk? Have you A-B the results of a ITB mix vs a OTB mix?

Thoughts anyone?

I haven't tried this yet, but I should.

I mix ITB. I was sweating analog summing until someone hiped me to how digital summing busses work and that you need to make sure you aren't clipping anywhere and that you are not just dropping the master fader. Then ITB mixing is pretty good, but analog summing is great because you don't have a machine doing highly complex math on your audio, analog summing is basically passive and has infinite resolution, so it makes sense to just run stuff through a summer just cuz it doesn;t take massive processing power.

I'll do some experiments.

You know, a good test would be to compare the API summed mixed to an in the box mix that you run through the API as a stereo out, then the tonal stuff from the API will be even on both and it will be more of a test on the summing.

Even runing stereo mix through an API has to be great.

Got any pics of that API ?

elmacaco wrote:You know, a good test would be to compare the API summed mixed to an in the box mix that you run through the API as a stereo out, then the tonal stuff from the API will be even on both and it will be more of a test on the summing.

Even runing stereo mix through an API has to be great.

Got any pics of that API ?

I'd love to do it but most times I get to use this board its for a jazz recording (although I did mix some christian philipino songs last month)

its great seeing the look on their faces when I tell them what kind of music I make in my off time


I have tried convincing one Hip hop cat I was working at to book a day (9am-9am) at this studio downtown (neve console, hella outboard racks, ATC monitors), but he figures for 1/4 the price he can just record at my home studio...........

and as for the summing math in digital......I just read an interesting opinion

this cat was suggesting the lack of channel bleeding and freq coloration is why we dislike the flat response of mixing ITB......who knows????


I will say one thing though....I am quite curious if changing my routing situation form totally ITB via DP to DP out to a mid-level mixer would give a noticeable improvement

it's weird, it's really comparing apples to oranges,

Digital summing has to do a lot of math, the more signals, the more math involved, the higher your resolution the better the math can be, so the better the mixing. 24 /96 sums really well, if a tad bright, but very high quality, but the processor needs to work really hard in doing it. where as analog mixing is just a question of combining voltages. The quality of the circuitry will impart some stamp on it, make some quality difference, but those pasive suming boxes you get have very little and fairly high quality circuitry for the summing, which is pretty simple.

Combining the voltages is just a question of signl paths and a bit of resistance, where as to do the same in digital requires a hell of a lot of digital power to do it right. So it is a good place to replace the function with analog since anaog does it without breaking a sweat and digital needs to be pretty on point to do it as well and the more it sweats (higher rates) the better it will be. Then it comes down to quality of each system. The highest quality analog vs the highest quality digital will still be split votes from the purists, but I think we hit useable well before we hit that kind of green.

I thonk it just comes down to believing no one and trying what you like best and seeing if it is worth it for the sound.

Sorry its a bit of a ramble fest, but i had a lot of coffee today

elmacaco wrote: The highest quality analog vs the highest quality digital will still be split votes from the purists, but I think we hit useable well before we hit that kind of green.

I thonk it just comes down to believing no one and trying what you like best and seeing if it is worth it for the sound.

The thing is if the sound of summing on a mid-level desk is not a noticeable improvement on my ITB mix....its a waste of $$$
and i'd be better off spending it on a controller to mix ITB

What to do, what to do??????


ps maybe I should of left this one in PM like the modular discussion, i was hoping more heads would chime in

Here's a link to an analog summing buss for DAWs that is pretty affordable.
It's $795.......not cheap, but affordable for the serious.
http://www.helsingaudio.com/

jaem wrote:I have had the discussion with a few others recently about the "best way to mix"

lol ... tight question and nice to have it in here! ... we (my homie and me - former band) have had month and years of hard discussions bout the same issue ... and nowadays almost always when i have some other friends here at my lil studio we end up having the same one ...

anyways - i m mixing otb all the way. my former partner (as all the others here) 2-3 years back wanted to go either all the way soft or at least for a multitracker ... at the end i got my mackie (sr 24-4-2) and meanwhile we stoped arguing and have split up ... lol

otb vs itb: i m not saying that my mackie is such a great mixer. i also dont say mixing otb is the way to go ... imo its a combined matter of gear used, even more importantly preference and believe ... and most importantly cash.

i choosed the otb way coz i felt my setup (i mainly use 4k and virus kb) is quite digital and clean sounding for my liking and a multitracker or a pc, mac with plugins is just adding more of that ... plus - i never really got the point of multitracking. ... i think the 4k (and any other mpc) is a great seq, the kb (and any other virus) a great synth, plus i use some outboard processors collected over the years which i always liked and most importantly i like things hands on! ... there s been a time though myself wanted a multitracker but it had to be a dps - at that time i dindnt have the cash and meanwhile i m happy bout that coz if i were to change my mixing console now i d rather get a better mixer then a dps ... anyways - whether the sound is gonna be better on a 1000-3000 $ multitracker or an analoge desk in the same price range i dunno but most definately i like to work otb better and thats what answers the question for me.

a question though i have to other members in here. ... the peeps i know here at my place really all went soft over the years (apart one homie that went backwards rocking an imo sexy 80-90 kawai q80-emu-mackie combo) - all the others went all the way mac or pc (qbase and ableton are most popular here) - professional studios mostly have througn out their mixers and they all seem to use protools now ... well, the only time i use my pc is for backing things up or for naming samples and progies via aksys ... so my question: anyone else out there not using softseq, plugins and multitrackers at all? ... i m startin to feel kinda asocial here in northern italy ...

anyways ... otb or itb ... bangin beaz y'all

I've always mixed OTB. I even run my vocals back out through my Yamaha board then out to a different soundcard to 2-track dump. I use modules, so they all run through the board also. I like being able to reach out an touch EQ knobs.....I guess I'm just old school like that. If I have sounds clashing or fighting for space, then I'll wave one of them out, mute the corresponding MIDI track, then season to taste.

itchyvinyl wrote:Here's a link to an analog summing buss for DAWs that is pretty affordable.
It's $795.......not cheap, but affordable for the serious.
http://www.helsingaudio.com/

yeah i seen that folcrom b4 (never heard it though)

was more looking for a desk with faders and EQ

gotta make a decision between a DAW controller and an analog mixer (no not mackie or yammie, i rather pop my eardrums with rusty needles)

This is really 2 questions.
1 do u mix itb or otb?
2 are u then summing itb or through a desk?

What I do for releases that i record, is mix itb and then run the whole mix through a SSL 9000J.

So you run just stereo through the J or you sum your stems through it?

If So, Do you hear a difference between summing the stems vs. just the 2 track?

jaem wrote:

itchyvinyl wrote:Here's a link to an analog summing buss for DAWs that is pretty affordable.
It's $795.......not cheap, but affordable for the serious.
http://www.helsingaudio.com/

yeah i seen that folcrom b4 (never heard it though)

was more looking for a desk with faders and EQ

gotta make a decision between a DAW controller and an analog mixer (no not mackie or yammie, i rather pop my eardrums with rusty needles)

I run a yammie....it does the job for my budget and needs right now. What are some good mixers you have your eye on or would recommend whether budget minded or not? Please post some info links too, plz.

I used to mix in Logic but I stopped doing that, because I hate mixing with a mouse/monitor, because it fcked with my workflow, and because somehow it never really sounded right (maybe because I sometimes used plugin EQ/compression...). Now I just run my sequencers 'live' to stereo through the desk so you could say I don't really mix ITB or OTB; I mix 'on the way into the box'.

I believe in keeping your signal chain and workflow as simple as you can practically get away with. My MPC and SP go straight into the Venice, and all I need to record is the stereo out from that. I might overdub some scratches in Logic but that's about it. Still, the quality of the desk matters a lot, and I have recently purchased a Midas Venice 240 which is very nice. I ran in to this interesting thread about summing while looking for info on this desk (it's a diy comparison between the summing on an SPL mixdream and the midas venice):

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthre ... ght=venice

Here's another thread on the subject:
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.p ... ght=venice

elmacaco wrote:So you run just stereo through the J or you sum your stems through it?

If So, Do you hear a difference between summing the stems vs. just the 2 track?

i use the ssl for summing

Have you compared an ITB mix run through a stereo channel on the J to a SSL summed version of the same mix? how big might that difference be.

I know analog summing is a big timesaver since you have headroom to play with, but I wonder how much of it is the sound of the SSL and how much is the actual summing.