2k5 XL Navigation

Is it just me or has the track navigation on the MPC2500 not been properly implemented? I'm guessing this comes from originally being designed for the 1k, which has less buttons for getting around your tracks.

<BAR> works fine in all modes and the same.
<Star/End> is good too.

Now it seems JJ has forgotten that <Step> is dual function with <Event> as pressing Shift <Step> for event doesn't seem to do anything, at least in the main screen.
Now in the Main screen editor <Step> moves you a beat forwards or back (usable although it could be argued it would be good to have it move you by the amount set in Quantise settings.)
In the Grid editor <Step> moved you to the next recorded even. Surely this is how <Event> should always be working so you can move both ways in both windows, no?
In the Control Grid editor <Step> again moves you by quarter notes, making it very hard to highlight and edit or delete an erroneous value, pretty much forcing to get near then go into Step edit to make your changes.



Or am I completely missing something?

bump... 2500 people, this sounds relevant...

Has nobody else even noticed this? It goes beyond what I've mentioned above.


If you use the wheel to move through either Main or Grid edit it always moves quarter notes with DRUM type tracks (it mimics the behaviour of the <Step> button with MIDI tracks in the main screen and moves you 0.00.04 ticks in Grid Edit) no matter what you have set in T/C. These quarter notes always fall on x.x.00 ; x.x.24 ; x.x.48 ; x.x.72 so they are not perfectly quantised. really they should follow the Swing settings and not always be the same.

Another problem. If you change the quantise level between the different settings and use the <Step> in the Main screen (it works as <Event> in Grid Edit) your steps end up in different places. Surely the points should coincide.

E.G.

Strength: 70% (this only actually affects recording doesn't it?)
Swing: 70%
Shift Timing: 0.

Note Value: 1/8th
x.x.00
x.x.67

Note Value 1/16th
x.x.00
x.x.33
x.x.48
x.x.81

Note Value 1/32nd
x.x.00
x.x.16
x.x.24
x.x.40
x.x.48
x.x.64
x.x.72
x.x.88


As you can see there is very little that actually aligns even though they are meant to have the same Swing.





So what do I want?

I want the Data Wheel to work how it does in Grid Edit with MIDI tracks (although maybe not as sensitive. 10 ticks standard, keeping Shift + Data Wheel to move 1 tick)
I want the Swing to stay the same across the different quantise settings.
I want <Step> to move you forwards and backwards by a Quantise Step in both Main screen and Grid Edit.
I want <Event> to move you to last/next recorded even in both Main screen and Grid Edit.


Are these unreasonable?

Pretty good point.... u are using the os2xl, right ?
imma check that later this noon... never really realized that at all

Yeah on JJOS2XL on the MPC2500.

I think some of the operation probably came about by JJ trying to get the best of both worlds for the MPC1000, which had the software first if I understand right. The smaller machine doesn't have both <Step> and <Event> like the 2k5 does so guess it was done to work around this. Needs to be standardised on the 2k5 which does have both though. Currently pressing <Event> (Go To + <Step>) does nothing whatsoever in any screen as far as I can tell.


I would guess the Swing issues are the same across both machines though.

The main screen grid is limited because it has a set screen size and no zoom.
That's where the 00-24-48-72 is coming from.

In the DRUM GRID screen it shows the numbers based on the ZOOM mode value. Zooming in gives you 00-12-24-36-48-60-72-84 on DRUM and 2 Tick movement on MIDI.
The Quantize setting only matters if you have the AUTO STEP INCREMENT function turned since it will step Quantized amount everytime you add a note.

THE ADVERSARY wrote:The main screen grid is limited because it has a set screen size and no zoom.
That's where the 00-24-48-72 is coming from.

In the DRUM GRID screen it shows the numbers based on the ZOOM mode value. Zooming in gives you 00-12-24-36-48-60-72-84 on DRUM and 2 Tick movement on MIDI.
The Quantize setting only matters if you have the AUTO STEP INCREMENT function turned since it will step Quantized amount everytime you add a note.

Well saying all those values I've quoted above are from the Main screen that can't be correct. In Main screen the <Step> button moves you by a different amount depending on T/C value (1/8 - 1/32) and Swing setting. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. The Data Wheel just always moves you by 24 tick increments (although surely it should be a true quarter, 25 ticks.)

kazakore wrote: The Data Wheel just always moves you by 24 tick increments (although surely it should be a true quarter, 25 ticks.)

Uhh are you saying 25 ticks is a quarter of a 96 PPQ quarter note??

elevated wrote:

kazakore wrote: The Data Wheel just always moves you by 24 tick increments (although surely it should be a true quarter, 25 ticks.)

Uhh are you saying 25 ticks is a quarter of a 96 PPQ quarter note??

Doh! Sorry tired and brain not working. Thanks for correcting me, just suddenly had it in my head that it should be 100 and never actually thought about it properly.

kazakore wrote:
Well saying all those values I've quoted above are from the Main screen that can't be correct. In Main screen the <Step> button moves you by a different amount depending on T/C value (1/8 - 1/32) and Swing setting. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. The Data Wheel just always moves you by 24 tick increments (although surely it should be a true quarter, 25 ticks.)

If you stop and look at the workflow JJ is trying to create it's based more on using the DATA Wheel and the CURSOR keys not the <STEP> buttons.
This is what keeps the 1k and 2500 workflow is the same.
Once you ZOOM in and use the DATA Wheel and the CURSOR keys the flow becomes faster and more productive both for input and edit in Grid mode.

I still find it funny people try to use the Main screen Grid it's too confining and restrictive to even bother with.
Having GRID Mode as the second screen for the MAIN button allows you to toggle quickly between MAIN and GRID for fast effective full function editing.

THE ADVERSARY wrote:

kazakore wrote:
Well saying all those values I've quoted above are from the Main screen that can't be correct. In Main screen the <Step> button moves you by a different amount depending on T/C value (1/8 - 1/32) and Swing setting. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. The Data Wheel just always moves you by 24 tick increments (although surely it should be a true quarter, 25 ticks.)

If you stop and look at the workflow JJ is trying to create it's based more on using the DATA Wheel and the CURSOR keys not the <STEP> buttons.
This is what keeps the 1k and 2500 workflow is the same.
Once you ZOOM in and use the DATA Wheel and the CURSOR keys the flow becomes faster and more productive both for input and edit in Grid mode.

I still find it funny people try to use the Main screen Grid it's too confining and restrictive to even bother with.
Having GRID Mode as the second screen for the MAIN button allows you to toggle quickly between MAIN and GRID for fast effective full function editing.

The Grid Edit screen is actually more restrictive in a way because it doesn't take any account of your Swing settings whereas Main does.

There are specific buttons for both <Step> and <Event> on the 2k5 so they should both be implemented in both screens, not have the same button swap roles in each!

kazakore wrote: The Grid Edit screen is actually more restrictive in a way because it doesn't take any account of your Swing settings whereas Main does.

There are specific buttons for both <Step> and <Event> on the 2k5 so they should both be implemented in both screens, not have the same button swap roles in each!

There is no advantage to taking the swing setting into account, you want access to all available points when micro editing, anything else is limiting.
It's the same as comparing realtime Quantize to Quantize OFF, it restricts your note placement.
Akai gave the extra buttons not JJ, JJ realizes that there are better ways to navigate through your sequences and that's what he has done.

Remember there are still lots of drum editors out there that require the cut and paste to even nudge notes. JJ is trying to get you as close to drop and drag as he can with the physical restraints of Akai's hardware.
It's a good direction he chose.

Riiiiight... the buttons shouldn't work properly since the 1000 doesn't have them. Lol

THE ADVERSARY wrote:

kazakore wrote: The Grid Edit screen is actually more restrictive in a way because it doesn't take any account of your Swing settings whereas Main does.

There are specific buttons for both <Step> and <Event> on the 2k5 so they should both be implemented in both screens, not have the same button swap roles in each!

There is no advantage to taking the swing setting into account, you want access to all available points when micro editing, anything else is limiting.

It's the same as comparing realtime Quantize to Quantize OFF, it restricts your note placement.

That's what you use the Jog Wheel for. As I stated the Jog Wheel doesn't take into account the Swing and is for your micro editing. Also DRUM and MIDI should work the same. Not one step 24 ticks and the other 4 ticks when in the Grid Edit screen, although Shift + Jog gives you 1 tick movement in both I believe.

Akai gave the extra buttons not JJ, JJ realizes that there are better ways to navigate through your sequences and that's what he has done.

No he hasn't! He has made the buttons operate in one mode in one screen and the other mode in the other screen where they should be able to operate as either in both, as designed. Anything else is just crippling the machine. You say the operation is based mainly around the Jog Wheel, and this will keep that (and prefferably standardise between how it works with both Drum and MIDI tracks) but people wanting to add quick parts with swing by programming should be able to use the <Step> button in BOTH modes, not being forced to go into Main to do it as the button only works as <Event> in the Grid Edit Mode because JJ couldn't be bothered to program its dual operation.




Thanks for you valued comment Elevated.

kazakore wrote:
That's what you use the Jog Wheel for. As I stated the Jog Wheel doesn't take into account the Swing and is for your micro editing. Also DRUM and MIDI should work the same. Not one step 24 ticks and the other 4 ticks when in the Grid Edit screen, although Shift + Jog gives you 1 tick movement in both I believe.

Again there is no value to taking swing into account when you are editing, it only serves to limit what you have access to.
DRUM and MIDI are designed to be different based on what they address, if they were they same it would take things back to where they were originally which is also a limiting factor.
The 4k was the first MPC to understand the need for the difference in track type and JJ added it for that reason.