the "this isn't mixed/mastered" excuse

@nin...the records being sampled were well engineered. When you listen to say EPMD or music from the time when they sampled a large noticeable portion of a hit reocrd, that initial record was engineered and on top of that the EPMD record was mastered.
Plus it helps when you sample a hit because what made it a hit will continue to be enjoyable.
I am not knocking sampling. I am sure you guys can make great music. There definitely is snobbery in engineering...I mean there is snobbery in every profession.
You guys do know that even though the music is put together in say an mpc...it is tracked out into either a computer or some sort of digital mixer through a mixing desk or its equivalent in software.
Were any of you to be giving money by a record label that is large you would have your work mastered through a desk or its digital equivalent. The music did not go from (for example) pete rock's mpc straight to a vinyl lathe. Nowadays if you're not making vinyl then you can go from an mpc to a computer then to the internet as WAV or what have you. However the sound at say Tuff Gong is still run through a desk or software track by track...then brought together and mixed, and then run through another compressor or mastering software before it is released as a cd or a WAV.
You guys do know this?

I guess to your point Nin, if "dope"ness is all that matters, and it is subjective, well a mass of people that think your sound is dope is all you really need.

There are no rules - just those that enslave themselves to 'em.

cheers,
Ian

Re: the "this isn't mixed/mastered" excuse

I've been feeling the same way. It's always said by someone who makes wack beats. I think wack beats are wack beats regardless of audio quality. But, no one uses cassette tapes for tracking anymore (we are so blessed!), and since even with cheap USB audio interface, you can get very decent result. (I just realized that most of producers would mix within DAW nowadays...)

It's unfortunate that we (as music producer, pro or non-pro like myself) are increasingly way too concerned about mastering. It seems that importance of creative process is left out these days. Maybe we are too spoiled with all those amazing softwares and powerful yet affordable computers.

For those who make "this isn't mixed/mastered" excuses, should listen to Main Source "Breakin' Atoms" and Gang Starr's "Daily Operation" albums. The mastering jobs on those albums are far from perfect (very bad, in fact), yet I still listen to those.

jpeg wrote:
as for the room excuse again thats a cop because when u put a play a dre beat in ur shit room the shit still bangs so no reason why ur beat made in the box in the same room should not also bang.

Thats not true.
A song mixed in a good environment (and with good ears) will sound good (or at least acceptble) on ANY gear in ANY room.
Its not the opposite way. A song mixed in bad environment CAN sound good in MY room but at the same time sound horrorble in any other room with any other gear.

peace

@ Ian: ya obviousley those records are mixed and mastered, and I'm very well aware of that, at several studios. I allways read through the booklets
Just saying that these records are a lot "rawer" / "less polished" than todays standards would be, and that I for myself find that sound to be a lot more apeeling.
So; why would I go by an opposite philosophy when it comes to the sound I create ??
Just some thoughts.

cheers

peterpiper wrote:

jpeg wrote:
as for the room excuse again thats a cop because when u put a play a dre beat in ur shit room the shit still bangs so no reason why ur beat made in the box in the same room should not also bang.

Thats not true.
A song mixed in a good environment (and with good ears) will sound good (or at least acceptble) on ANY gear in ANY room.
Its not the opposite way. A song mixed in bad environment CAN sound good in MY room but at the same time sound horrorble in any other room with any other gear.

peace

In fairness.. I'm not sure if I can subscribe to that. Even an excellent mix will sound bad if you play it through a soundsystem that doesn't suit the room.
Imagine a really bassheavy setup in a church for instance..
The song would drown in reverberation..

-niN wrote:

peterpiper wrote:

jpeg wrote:
as for the room excuse again thats a cop because when u put a play a dre beat in ur shit room the shit still bangs so no reason why ur beat made in the box in the same room should not also bang.

Thats not true.
A song mixed in a good environment (and with good ears) will sound good (or at least acceptble) on ANY gear in ANY room.
Its not the opposite way. A song mixed in bad environment CAN sound good in MY room but at the same time sound horrorble in any other room with any other gear.

peace

In fairness.. I'm not sure if I can subscribe to that. Even an excellent mix will sound bad if you play it through a soundsystem that doesn't suit the room.
Imagine a really bassheavy setup in a church for instance..
The song would drown in reverberation..

Das ist aber auch ein extremes Beispiel dass du da wählst. Und ja, da hast du recht. Hab schon viele live sachen in Kirchen gemacht und der sound dort ist zu 90% kacke wenn es nicht gerade ne Freikirche ist (modernere Gebäude, Leute die ein bisschen auf die Akustik und die Anlage achten.) Natürlich spielt eine deem Raum angemessene PA da auch mit rein.
Aber mir gehts halt darum dass ein Dre Beat wohl auf den meisten Anlagen MINDESTENS ok klingt.
Ich kann hier einfach nix machen in dem Raum. Ich hock hier auf 12qm mit 4 knapp 4000 Platten und nem Eckschreibtisch. Dazu kommen 2 Fenster und ne Dachschräge die in der mitte des Raumes anfängt und dann noch AIWA HiFi Boxen.
Wenn ich meinen Kopf zur Seite drehe ändert sich der Klang gerade im Bassbereich ständig.
Eine der nächsten Investitionen werden dann wohl auch mal einigermassen gute Kopfhörer sein.

Jammern auf hohem Niveau. Typisch deutsch. Ich weiss


peace

-niN wrote:
In fairness.. I'm not sure if I can subscribe to that. Even an excellent mix will sound bad if you play it through a soundsystem that doesn't suit the room.
Imagine a really bassheavy setup in a church for instance..
The song would drown in reverberation..

i can see where your coming from here, but the whole point of mixing is so that your song will translate well to any system you listen to it on, be that an ipod, car, tv stereo,ect ect.. although there may be a few exceptions to this, the whole point of a good mix is so that it can be listened to anywhere and on anything.

in all fairness, i think that saying my song isnt mixed yet as an excuse for it being a shitty song is just that, an excuse for it being a shitty song.

that being said, there are alot of great songs by great artists that arent mixed properly.
i see this alot from lesser known people without budgets, but i also see the potential in these tracks, despite their poor mix/audio quality.
they could benefit 100 fold by having a proper mix, but sadly alot of them will never get proper mixes done becuase they dont know someone that will mix it properly for them/ dont have enough money to pay for a mix and master job, ect. ect.

damien907 wrote:but sadly alot of them will never get proper mixes done becuase they dont know someone that will mix it properly for them/ dont have enough money to pay for a mix and master job, ect. ect.

why not learn how to do it yourself?

es-k wrote:

damien907 wrote:but sadly alot of them will never get proper mixes done becuase they dont know someone that will mix it properly for them/ dont have enough money to pay for a mix and master job, ect. ect.

why not learn how to do it yourself?

easy...because some people either dont give 2 shits to try and learn or just dont care

personally, if people say my music sounds good and are willing to buy it (meaning that they like the quality of it enough to buy), that im happy with that.

i've always tried to get my mixes going where each sound in the track stands out, doesnt have to be pristine or raw, it just needs to be "heard" and the whole track needs to sounds like i put effort into it. that said, i still focus 10x as much on the composition and how everything is played out(ie patterns, feel, etc.)

if you have your stuff mixed "properly" and mastered, if your track is boring, no changeups, same pattern over and over for 4 minutes, no matter how much you spent on mastering, people are going to hit "skip".

some people have big apartments with ipod docking stations and some people have huge stereo systems...and i feel like 99% of the people dont give a shit if your drums arent hitting that hard or the acoustics are off on your guitar (ie at the club, house party,etc.)

why not take advantage of this opportunity to drop some simple EQing & mastering tips for us all?

i guess my point is this - its not that hard to learn a few basic eq, compression, techniques that will make your music sound much better.. the mixing part of making a beat becomes creative.. easily just another step in the creative process

i think people sell themselves short, thinking that "oh its ok, it would sound better if its mixed"

here's some simple ones that make a world of difference

dont let your levels peak... seems obvious.. but ive had so many people open up a beat and press play to be like "this bumps!!" to have the kick and snare just wayyy up in the red. yea it might sound good straight out the box, but once you get down to it the track is gonna sound muddy, distorted, etc

dont turn the bass way up.. you bass will sound clearer and louder if its not messing with everything else in your song.. it should sit comfortably.. without making the volume of anything else seem to change, or muffling any other sounds

if you're playing a synth bass or bass guitar, or even LPing a sample, take your main sample, or main instrument, and cut the low end a bit so it doesn't clash with the bass

if you dont know how to do side chain compression, add a little attack the to bass chops that a kick also lands on

cut frequencies instead of boosting them. i rarely "boost" the eq of a sample.. cutting what you dont want is more effective and prevents things from peaking

use slight panning to make your song sound bigger but keep the low end and the main snare in the middle (this isn't a RULE... but trust me, things get weird if u venture too far from this.. lol when the bass isnt center, and the snare drum isnt center, things get funky.. almost makes you dizzy)

i usually have my compressor with a low attack, faster release, low threshold and the ration between 2:1 and 4:1.. but that all depends

when blending samples from two different records, filter out conflicting frequencies


maybe ill add more, there are so many little things u accumulate over time


but DPM i do get where you're coming from.. people DO care about how things sound tho... even if they're not trained or dont know what they're talking about it usually either sounds like shit or it doesnt

the shittiest lil wayne song will be liked 100 times more than a better song recorded at way worse quality (drums dont bump, addlibs aren't mixed right, etc... evennnn if its a better quality song.. rhymes, content, melody, drum pattern, etc)

i think the point of this thread is just this... dont sell yourself short and realize that BEING BETTER AT MIXING MAKES YOU BETTER AT MAKING BEATS!! LISTENERS AND ARTISTS WILL RESPECT YOU MORE..ITS WORTH IT! and you SHOULD CARE! its fun and rewarding too..


PS - everything i mentioned above is self taught, or things that i picked up... some of it might be "wrong"... and if i am im sure someone will chime in.. but those are a few things that have helped me!

peace

es-k wrote: dont sell yourself short and realize that BEING BETTER AT MIXING MAKES YOU BETTER AT MAKING BEATS!! LISTENERS AND ARTISTS WILL RESPECT YOU MORE..ITS WORTH IT! and you SHOULD CARE!

i can agree with this.

My favorite trick for mixing....

1) mix the track however you like through headphones and speakers

-- From here on out is speakers ONLY --

2) Turn your speakers as low as you can get them so you barely hear the output. Can you hear ALL the parts? If not, re-mix it till you can.

3) Turn up the speakers kind of loud. Step back in the room or even out of the room. Just not real close to the speakers. Can you hear ALL the parts how you want? Does it sound good in the room or in the next room? If not, re-mix till you like it.

4) Repeat 2 & 3 till you get good results from both extremes.

crossings wrote:why not take advantage of this opportunity to drop some simple EQing & mastering tips for us all?

Ha! Thats not a bad idea!!

To be honest I think people that don't MIX their shit are lazy. Some one pointed out that a lot of artist play it straight out their MPC raw and it sounds dope, but when they release it to the public it doesn't stay RAW does it? Its Mixed and Mastered.
Idk my tip to everyone who wants to improve their mixing is watch interviews on how other engineers do it. They don't keep secrets, their secrets are out! Its a matter of whether you decide to use their techniques or not.

Riggs wrote:My favorite trick for mixing....

1) mix the track however you like through headphones and speakers

-- From here on out is speakers ONLY --

2) Turn your speakers as low as you can get them so you barely hear the output. Can you hear ALL the parts? If not, re-mix it till you can.

3) Turn up the speakers kind of loud. Step back in the room or even out of the room. Just not real close to the speakers. Can you hear ALL the parts how you want? Does it sound good in the room or in the next room? If not, re-mix till you like it.

4) Repeat 2 & 3 till you get good results from both extremes.

That sounds like good advice! Very easy to try out at least. Thank you!