MIDI Latency with REN

Does anyone notice a larger than normal amount of latency when using MIDI with the Ren? I ask as I have a Motif ES8 as my master keyboard and when I turn LOCAL ON (on the Motif) and listen to it compared with it via MIDI (on the REN) it sounds 'chorused' versus that phased sound you normally get when you do this. Does anyone else notice this compared to say sequencing in Logic, or another sequencer?

midi latency should be okay...

xparis001 wrote:using our custom midi driver, we can be (conservatively) 10 times faster than a standard midi USB connection. in reality, its closer to 15x, or thereabouts. and we can have multiple ports, each of which can process simultaneously, rather than linearly. standard class compliant controllers cant do this.

...unless dan lied to the public. remember the whole vintage mode debacle.

Hmm… I've worked with many sequencers (MPC 4k, ASR-10, Pro Tools, and Logic 9), and have never heard this much delay between the local and remote sound. I even re-installed the Yamaha USB driver, Ren software, etc. Im going to try going straight MIDI into the Ren to eliminate the Motif's USB port which is how Im connected to my computer currently.

you may find this interesting...



http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1096/460

hope this is faster then rolands fantom x usb midi which was a disaster...

turnstile wrote:Does anyone notice a larger than normal amount of latency when using MIDI with the Ren? I ask as I have a Motif ES8 as my master keyboard and when I turn LOCAL ON (on the Motif) and listen to it compared with it via MIDI (on the REN) it sounds 'chorused' versus that phased sound you normally get when you do this. Does anyone else notice this compared to say sequencing in Logic, or another sequencer?

I have noticed the same thing when using midi...

turnstile wrote:Does anyone notice a larger than normal amount of latency when using MIDI with the Ren? I ask as I have a Motif ES8 as my master keyboard and when I turn LOCAL ON (on the Motif) and listen to it compared with it via MIDI (on the REN) it sounds 'chorused' versus that phased sound you normally get when you do this. Does anyone else notice this compared to say sequencing in Logic, or another sequencer?

To be clear how your doing this, are you saying your playing a patch with the keyboard on the motif, then routing the midi back to the es8(motif midi out to ren midi in ,, ren midi out to motif midi in thus using software or the mpc app to cause the routing back into the motifes8) OR you are using the usb connection from both the motif and the ren to transmit midi...

How are you testing this?

i want to show you something funny. this is inside my motif xf...



there is zero noticeable midi latency when using any of the internal sounds in conjunction with the built-in sequencer. the moral of this story: forget your quadcore i7´s! choosing the right buffer sizes is always a pain in the butt. music workstations rule!

dazastah wrote:

turnstile wrote:Does anyone notice a larger than normal amount of latency when using MIDI with the Ren? I ask as I have a Motif ES8 as my master keyboard and when I turn LOCAL ON (on the Motif) and listen to it compared with it via MIDI (on the REN) it sounds 'chorused' versus that phased sound you normally get when you do this. Does anyone else notice this compared to say sequencing in Logic, or another sequencer?

To be clear how your doing this, are you saying your playing a patch with the keyboard on the motif, then routing the midi back to the es8(motif midi out to ren midi in ,, ren midi out to motif midi in thus using software or the mpc app to cause the routing back into the motifes8) OR you are using the usb connection from both the motif and the ren to transmit midi...

How are you testing this?

Motif ---> Mac Mini Server via USB
Ren ---> Mac Mini Server via USB

Inside MIDI Prefs in REN
INS:
Yamaha USB IN1

OUTS:
Yamaha USB Out1
MPC Ren Out A
MPC Ren Out B
MPC Ren Out C

Then comparing the local sound out of the Motif and playing it through the REN (MIDI/Yamaha USB/Channel 1)

Well it may be the usb to midi latency.. You have two in your case.. Plus you are moving the midi through software aswell.. All potential latency adders!!! I'd assume it wouldn't really change for other daws, especially if the buffer sizes are the same.. But i'm not gonna say like i know the answer.. I'm just speculating... Someone else mite have to lay down the hammer...

dazastah wrote:Well it may be the usb to midi latency.. You have two in your case.. Plus you are moving the midi through software aswell.. All potential latency adders!!! I'd assume it wouldn't really change for other daws, especially if the buffer sizes are the same.. But i'm not gonna say like i know the answer.. I'm just speculating... Someone else mite have to lay down the hammer...

Its the same even if you use midi cables or usb

dazastah wrote:Well it may be the usb to midi latency.. You have two in your case.. Plus you are moving the midi through software aswell.. All potential latency adders!!! I'd assume it wouldn't really change for other daws, especially if the buffer sizes are the same.. But i'm not gonna say like i know the answer.. I'm just speculating... Someone else mite have to lay down the hammer...

When you say 'buffer settings' are you talking about the 'audio buffer' settings inside the REN? If so that is only for audio and has nothing to do with MIDI as per the manual.

GNRFAMZT wrote:i want to show you something funny. this is inside my motif xf...



there is zero noticeable midi latency when using any of the internal sounds in conjunction with the built-in sequencer. the moral of this story: forget your quadcore i7´s! choosing the right buffer sizes is always a pain in the butt. music workstations rule!

MIDI timing on the Motorola 68000 in the Atari ST was stellar too, which had ports directly connected to the main board. Modern computers are an ocean of sometimes-conflicting drivers.

cloud777 wrote:Its the same even if you use midi cables or usb

Must be only the software adding the noticable latency then. Whats the delay amount? if you could guess the time?

I would assume a latency when routing midi through software compared to routing midi through dedicated hard ware midi devices.. Especially devices that haven't got alot going on especially in the manner turnstile is testing...

turnstile wrote:When you say 'buffer settings' are you talking about the 'audio buffer' settings inside the REN? If so that is only for audio and has nothing to do with MIDI as per the manual.

True, but has anyone tested this? i have never actually tested wether buffer settings effect the latency of a device that has midi hardware with it as well.. especially through specific software daws.. And how they deal with plugin delay compensation..

I would kind of assume the midi timing would be compensated (in the daw especially if the daw is sequencing) together with the audio that the daw is sequencing.. It would be tight at doing that, but if it needs to process incoming midi data and route it back out there may be a timing/latency issue..

Perhaps run the test with different buffer settings to see if it changes the lag...

dazastah wrote:True, but has anyone tested this? i have never actually tested wether buffer settings effect the latency of a device that has midi hardware with it as well.. especially through specific software daws.. And how they deal with plugin delay compensation..

I would kind of assume the midi timing would be compensated (in the daw especially if the daw is sequencing) together with the audio that the daw is sequencing.. It would be tight at doing that, but if it needs to process incoming midi data and route it back out there may be a timing/latency issue..

Perhaps run the test with different buffer settings to see if it changes the lag...

You are totally right on this! I pulled down the buffer to 128 and the latency got instantly better. I moved it to 1024 and it was horrible. This doesn't make sense as it is suppose to be the latency of the audio interface, not MIDI being recorded/played back from the REN.

It's funny as Im currently working on a song using a 'Lately Bass" bass line doing 16 note pulses via the REN's repeat. And this whole time Im thinking, WTF why does the bass not feel like it is pushing forward. I was actually going to see if I could somehow shift the whole MIDI track slightly forward to make it push more... Im guessing when the REN is playing back that MIDI data to the Motif (with a high buffer size) its timing is delayed. This makes no sense to me...