Timing and Swing

pspsounds wrote:I wonder if there will be any more vintage modes in the next update.

I have requested a vintage mode for real time swing settings, that of older MPC's.

The idea was welcomed. I hope it made it trough thou.

Chillin wrote:I have requested a vintage mode for real time swing settings, that of older MPC's.

How would this work?

MPC Software already has the same swing settings as older MPCs, doesn't it?

SimonInAustralia wrote:

Chillin wrote:I have requested a vintage mode for real time swing settings, that of older MPC's.

How would this work?

MPC Software already has the same swing settings as older MPCs, doesn't it?

Maybe he means the swing preview like on MPC 4000.

FatGyver wrote:

SimonInAustralia wrote:

Chillin wrote:I have requested a vintage mode for real time swing settings, that of older MPC's.

How would this work?

MPC Software already has the same swing settings as older MPCs, doesn't it?

Maybe he means the swing preview like on MPC 4000.

Yep, that's what I meant for the most part, it also how the swing by itself sounds is different. From what I've heard by people the swing settings are different on different MPC's. I own the 5000 so I can't tell of others by personal experience. But I do know that the swing settings in MPC software is similar to that of the swing settings in 5000.






In fact I have requested other 4000 features as well.


Logic X and Abelton are specify using the MPC-60 swing settings. I that think this is for a reason. Thus is why Logic uses a MPC-60 logo.





I even found an older thread on this topic.


viewtopic.php?f=24&t=148849

Chillin wrote:it also how the swing by itself sounds is different. From what I've heard by people the swing settings are different on different MPC's.

Are they?

Isn't MPC swing a standard calculation, based on swing percentage and amount?

I would have thought that swing was the same on all MPCs, the only difference mabe being due to 96ppq vs 960ppq on the later MPCs, meaning that swung notes are moved to slightly different positions when the sequencer resolution is 960ppq, since it allows finer resolution.

SimonInAustralia wrote:

Chillin wrote:it also how the swing by itself sounds is different. From what I've heard by people the swing settings are different on different MPC's.

Are they?

Isn't MPC swing a standard calculation, based on swing percentage and amount?

I would have thought that swing was the same on all MPCs, the only difference mabe being due to 96ppq vs 960ppq on the later MPCs, meaning that swung notes are moved to slightly different positions when the sequencer resolution is 960ppq, since it allows finer resolution.

Apparently the calculation has shifts of a few milliseconds between the increments, within the sequences. And yes, I know that the lowest and highest resolutions are 96ppq to 960ppq. But again, I don't own older / classic MPC's (except for the 5000) so it's something I theorize about, and heard of from others. Here is another thread, where people who own several MPC's have noticed differences in swing. Or at least, they claim so.


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=94522


I however have requested "real time" swings settings, which is only in the 4000 as is, this request was welcomed by Akai employees. So I hope it makes it in v1.7.



Here is the explanation of swing settings by Roger himself.


Quote:

How important are a few milliseconds? When it comes to sequencers, they can mean the difference between a perfect groove and a sloppy mess. We talk to drum machine pioneer Roger Linn to discover the secrets of perfect musical timing and find out why the swing of his MPC sampler series remains so highly rated.

Perhaps above all else, one of the main questions we found ourselves asking was why the earlier models in Akai’s MPC series of sampling workstations are still considered to be among the best around when it comes to groove and timing.

...

Eventually it struck us that there was only one person who’d be able to give us definitive answers to all our queries: Roger Linn, inventor of swing and quantisation, designer of the ground-breaking Linn sample-based drum machines, the Akai MPC60 and MPC3000 and the DSI Tempest.

Etc...


http://www.attackmagazine.com/features/ ... -timing/2/

The timing on the 4000 (960 ppq) is incredible.

Chillin wrote:Apparently the calculation has shifts of a few milliseconds between the increments, within the sequences. And yes, I know that the lowest and highest resolutions are 96ppq to 960ppq. But again, I don't own older / classic MPC's (except for the 5000) so it's something I theorize about, and heard of from others. Here is another thread, where people who own several MPC's have noticed differences in swing. Or at least, they claim so.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=94522

Shouldn't be too hard to test, just use the same swing settings on both MPCs, go into step edit, check where the events have been moved to, compare the event locations between MPC models.

Jerome had the right idea in one of the threads you linked to, in the first post he lists the event time positions for various swing settings, but no one replied with the results from the same swing settings on different MPCs...
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=148849

I would be surprised if they are moved to different sequencer locations on the two MPCs that are tested, but it seems that many have found a difference, so something must be going on.

I think it is more likely overall sequencer timing differences between the various MPC models, rather than differences in the swing settings/calculations.

Chillin wrote:I however have requested "real time" swings settings, which is only in the 4000 as is, this request was welcomed by Akai employees. So I hope it makes it in v1.7.

OK, but the real time swing preview in the MPC4000 is not really "that of older MPC's", as it is only the MPC4000 that has that feature.

It sounds like a useful feature though, being able to preview what the Timing Correct will do, trying out different settings, before applying it to the sequence.

Chillin wrote:Here is the explanation of swing settings by Roger himself.

I know what swing settings are, but Roger doesn't go into detail about any differences in the swing settings on his MPCs vs later MPCs?

SimonInAustralia wrote:Shouldn't be too hard to test, just use the same swing settings on both MPCs, go into step edit, check where the events have been moved to, compare the event locations between MPC models.

Jerome had the right idea in one of the threads you linked to, in the first post he lists the event time positions for various swing settings, but no one replied with the results from the same swing settings on different MPCs...
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=148849

I would be surprised if they are moved to different sequencer locations on the two MPCs that are tested, but it seems that many have found a difference, so something must be going on.

I think it is more likely overall sequencer timing differences between the various MPC models, rather than differences in the swing settings/calculations.

I had that link posted already in a post prior to this one, I, however did not know that he's the Jerome, people are often talking about.

And yes, I have tested the 5000 vs Ren software. The 5000 by ears seems slightly different. I wonder if it's the hardware. The grit of the Ren software seems more tight. Then again, the 5000 was left with bugs.

SimonInAustralia wrote:OK, but the real time swing preview in the MPC4000 is not really "that of older MPC's", as it is only the MPC4000 that has that feature.

That's what I said. I wrote that I have requested this feature and that it was welcomes by Akai employees.

SimonInAustralia wrote:I know what swing settings are, but Roger doesn't go into detail about any differences in the swing settings on his MPCs vs later MPCs?

That is perhaps because he wasn't involved in later models. So, it's hard for him to argue about that.

Chillin wrote:I had that link posted already in a post prior to this one, I, however did not know that he's the Jerome, people are often talking about.

That was one of his earlier forum names.

Chillin wrote:And yes, I have tested the 5000 vs Ren software. The 5000 by ears seems slightly different. I wonder if it's the hardware. The grit of the Ren software seems more tight. Then again, the 5000 was left with bugs.

But you seem to think there is a difference in swing, as do others.

The swing calculation is simple, it just moves some events to different locations, should be easy to confirm if it is different between the different MPC models.

What you, and others, perceive as differences in swing between MPC models, I think is more likely to be overall sequencer timing differences, not differences in the swing calculation itself.

Chillin wrote:That's what I said. I wrote that I have requested this feature and that it was welcomes by Akai employees.

I have no problem with the feature request at all, just the reference to it being from 'that of older MPCs'. There are many different older MPCs, but I think only one with a realtime swing preview, the MPC4000.

Chillin wrote:That is perhaps because he wasn't involved in later models. So, it's hard for him to argue about that.

Well perhaps you shouldn't use what he says in that interview to try and support your belief that there is a difference in swing between MPC models, if he doesn't actually say that?

I also think it's probably down to the timing differences between models, with the 3K and 4K being monumentally solid and the 5K being like a "drunken sailor on a drum kit".

SimonInAustralia wrote:
That was one of his earlier forum names.

I see.

SimonInAustralia wrote:
But you seem to think there is a difference in swing, as do others.

The swing calculation is simple, it just moves some events to different locations, should be easy to confirm if it is different between the different MPC models.

What you, and others, perceive as differences in swing between MPC models, I think is more likely to be overall sequencer timing differences, not differences in the swing calculation itself.

There is a noticeable difference in the after effect. This is stated by people who own multiple MPC's. Do you own multiple MPC's, and have you checked this out yourself?

The calculation may or not be the same. But I am starting to think that it may has to do with the hardware, and how the currents are wired. A few milliseconds of in electric currency can make a noticeable difference.

SimonInAustralia wrote:I have no problem with the feature request at all, just the reference to it being from 'that of older MPCs'. There are many different older MPCs, but I think only one with a realtime swing preview, the MPC4000.

Would it matter if you had problems with any of my requests? (Sarc)

And no, I didn't say that realtime swing preview is in multiple MPC's. I wrote that it is only in the MPC4000, as of. Suggesting it for the new MPC-software.

SimonInAustralia wrote:Well perhaps you shouldn't use what he says in that interview to try and support your belief that there is a difference in swing between MPC models, if he doesn't actually say that?

But what he says in that interview is the core essential to this technology/ algorithms.
And even in that interview the same question was being asked. Is there difference.


Many have wondered about this, since they have experienced a noticeable difference.

The only people who truly know, are those who were part of the development itself. Because those increments we see, don't have to correlate with the actual algorithms.

Coz wrote:I also think it's probably down to the timing differences between models, with the 3K and 4K being monumentally solid and the 5K being like a "drunken sailor on a drum kit".

Do you have any personal experience with these?

Chillin wrote:Do you have any personal experience with these?

Personal experience with what?

The timing variations between several MPCs are listed here along with loads of other gear.


http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... itmus.html

My 5k must have been a one off then.Felt very tight to me.Maybe under a microscope in certain test conditions it will possibly wander of the robots GRID!!!!!But its no slouch in any respect rhythm-wise.....and very good resolution.