Battle between Software and hardware

"Soft synths sound good but they DON'T have the same sound or dynamics as thier hardware counterpoints any more than a sampled hi hat does to a real set of hats. "

Thank you for mention that. I don't know what an ARP 2600 (or any other expensive synth) sounds like.. I have never even touched one. I'd like to try one out, but the software is cheap, and it emulates the real thing. Is there a reason on this earth why I should need the original piece? Doesn't software sound like the perfect answer for someone like myself? The only way I could say that the software isn't what I want is if I had owner the original synth. If I knew the software was so much worse, then I wouldn't buy it in the first place. It's kinda like saying don't eat taco bell because the real mexican food tastes better ( which I already know) but if I don't plan on going to mexico, I may still want a soft taco supreme. Them schyt's are good! Preservatives and all! American Mexican food.. haha what's next!

roxstar wrote:It's kinda like saying don't eat taco bell because the real mexican food tastes better ( which I already know) but if I don't plan on going to mexico, I may still want a soft taco supreme.

alright now,this is gettin outta hand. As a person of latin decent Im offended by this statement, you can find great mexican food in the states but not at taco bell....

thats like sayin Kentucky fried chicken is "soul food".....

" latin decent Im offended by this statement, you can find great mexican food in the states but not at taco bell"

haha.. my bad yo!

"thats like sayin Kentucky fried chicken is "soul food"....."

Looks like a chicken, tastes like a chicken.. haha But here in Detroit, some KFC's have greens and cornbread, so yea.. KFC is soulfood. Niggums stay in them joints from sun up to sun down! haha We love chicken! .... and even with THAT example, if I had never eaten a chicken without the steriods, I'd STILL eat these crack head fried chickens! The only way I wouldn't is if I knew how much better a sober drug free chicken tasted.

lol, if yall feelin kfc like that I should open up a Roscoes up there...

who won round 1? and where r the card girls?

I'm just saying what was said about a particular software synth.

Don;'t repeat what you can't verify as if you are verifying.

Yes, and it's an overglorified limited machine. I like it, but I'd never spend the $1000+ on one.

Why does the money and pricetag have to come into it? How does it sound and what does it do for you? Why does your ability to own a machine become such a heavy determining factor of it's general value in your opinion?

I'll never own a pipe organ and I surely can;t afford one, but it's a fantastic instrument.

What makes you think that I'm just making this schyt up? A TR-808 sells for about $1000. It's sounds good, but so do my samples. An actual TR-808 does sound good, but not $1000 better than my free samples.

Cuz you said you never seen a real 808? Seriously, how would you know if the real thing doesn;t sound better? I'm not saying it does, but $1000 isn;t a lot of money to a lot of people, and 808's go for much less than that. Again, it's a machine, it has value beyond it's price tag and it's perceived use to you. It's funny to read such strong opinions about something from someone who has never even seen one in person IIRC.

"Well for one the hardware retains it's value much better than software"

Now, that's collectorism talking!

No practicality, especially if you are poor, buying hardware instead of software lets you then resell that hardware to buy something else in the future. Try selling a copy of reason 1 see how much you get. Practical economics is a reality for all of us, but you just asked for ONE REASON why to buy hardware and I gave you one.

It's just that I've learned that spending money and lusting gear is NOT the answer.

I agree, but your opinions of the realism of software emulations are baseless and unqualified, by your own admission. You are in no position to judge when you are only hearing the software and probably are running the "cheap " versions. Free is better for sure, but some things are worth sacrificing for, and it takes being in a room with one and getting to play it for one to know it.

I know of no real ARP 2600 owner selling their old arp because of the software. I know a few cats that thought about selling their prophet 5's when they got the software but then backed out and kept them.

you ever read equipment reviews? You know there are mic preamps that cost $5000 and up right? Do you think they are fools? Have you heard a $5000 mic pre? i personally don't need that kind of quality, but a $10,000 mic and pre set up is generally the minimum you will hear on most of your favorite records, there is a real difference. Getting away with cheap is fine, but don;t knock shyt you don;t know the first thing about just to say something.

Not all sounds are good, ESPECIALLY the ones that you pay for. I'm VERY dissapointed in a keyboard/sound module when it's not what I expected.. but give it to me for free, and I won't have a bad word to say about it. I don't mind not liking a sound that I don't have to spend money on, so I will always appreciate free sounds.

See I don;t get why the price of it matters so much to your opinion of a sound. Like " Hey do you like that ferrari? " I don;t know yet, how much it cost?"

You see what I'm saying, it's a weird thing where your inability to own it makes it wack before you've even played one.

I sample kids toys, traffic, and anything that can spark an interest. Personally I think anyone that doing all that is getting really deep into their music and taking things to the next level. It means a lot more than simply spending a couple thousand bux on a machine just because of it's higher re-sale value.

Again, I agree with you. I'm not talking about spoiled kids with a triton fantom and motif, or money buying good music, I'm simply saying that you can't make a statement about how good or bad a piece of gear sounds compared to something else just by looking at the price and not hearing it. Which is what you did talking about the 2600 and later the 808 when you didn;t really need to speak on that at all. You basically voice and uneducated opinion on the SOUND of something based on it's price tag.

You're other points are fine, Just don't do that, it undermines anything you do say from experience.

" Don;'t repeat what you can't verify as if you are verifying. "


ok, here, a quote....

Product Overview & Specifications:

Moog Modular V

Ever dreamt of using one of the best synthesizers ever made? Ever dreamt of working with a modular system whose sound is part of musical legend?
Arturia, in partnership with ((((Bob Moog)))), have made it possible with a faithful reproduction of one of the most famous series of synthesizers:

This was with a quick search on ebay for a VST synth (collection). check for yourself. $399.00 Just type VST synth.. go ahead... go on now.

"Why does the money and pricetag have to come into it?"
Because it's a factor. If money wasn't an issue, you wouldn't be using a drum machine to make beats. You'd hire a drummer, and hire a keyboard player, etc, etc. Drum machines were made to help guitarists practice WITHOUT hiring a drummer.. No drummer, less money. If I can get a sound that is close to the original, why should I pay for the original when I know nothing about it???? I like fast cars, but I don't have a lamborghini. My mustang can do a quarter in less than 12 seconds.. I'm happy.

"I'll never own a pipe organ and I surely can;t afford one, but it's a fantastic instrument"

It sure is a great instrument...IN A CHURCH. You'd be a downright fool to buy a pipeorgan to put in your basement just because you like the sound. Please. Plus, you have to know how to play one. Pipe-organ in the right hands=wonderfull instrument. Pipe organ in the hands of someone that just wants one, and doesn't know how to play=foolish.

"Cuz you said you never seen a real 808? Seriously, how would you know if the real thing doesn;t sound better"

My neighbors have a rock/electronic group called 'Adult.' (do a search on yahoo.. ADULT, DETROIT.. something like that) The live across the street from me and have just about EVERY synth you can imagine.. Well, maybe not every, but he got more than a few up there. Korg poly's Roland Juno's, CR-8000's, 808's, 909's, even some funky looking rolands that don't even look like drum machines. Anyways, I don't know where you get the idea that I don't know!! I'm actually getting kinda tired of this. If I didn't know, I wouldn't say anything about it. The fact is that I do know, and a real 808 DOES NOT sound $1000 than my 808 samples. An 808 ONLY sound better to people that have spent $1000 on one and need to justify why the spent that kind of money. Just like the MPC3000 vs 2000 debate. Yes, the 3000 is warmer.. just a little... it's not $1000 warmer!! Anyone that buys an 808 or a 3000 shoudl not expect a sonic miracle to happen if they are used to an MPC1000 with 808 samples. The difference ain't that spectacular.

"buying hardware instead of software lets you then resell that hardware to buy something else in the future. Try selling a copy of reason 1 see how much you get."

If you shell out 5 grand for an ARP, you better have a DAMN good reason why you absolutely need it... especially if you can get a vst for less than $100. If I bought reason for $300 and could only get $150 2 years later.. no big deal.. If I paid 5 grand for the arp, and could only get $3000, it's a big deal. You can't assume that just beause you paid x amount for it, that you will get it back. MPC3000's used to hit for over 2 grand, just a year ago. Who's talking about mpc3000's now? Ohh, suddenly, that extra warmth ain't so important now the 2500 and new mpc1000 OS came out.

"Free is better for sure, but some things are worth sacrificing for, and it takes being in a room with one and getting to play it for one to know it.
I know of no real ARP 2600 owner selling their old arp because of the software."

Your saying the same thing that I'm saying. If you've tried a real ARP, and know it's amazing, then by all means, spend the money. You will not be satisfied with a VST on an eMachine. Again, I don't know what an ARP sounds like, but I would love to include one in my music because of all the hype that it's generated. A VST is perfect for me, and anyone else that would be interested in hearing what an arp is capable of. That's all I'm saying.. what's the problem with that?










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roxstar wrote:" I like fast cars, but I don't have a lamborghini. My mustang can do a quarter in less than 12 seconds.. I'm happy.

i can see where both yall are comin from but this analogy is a bad one, comparing a lambo to a mustang is reeeaalllyyyy not proving your point, its kinda solidifying el's.......

you say you like fast cars and then mention a mustang(eeewwwwww), if you had ever been in a "real" fast car you would know that the mustang isn't one..

so who won round 1?

Rox, your'e assuming everyone records on a computer. The sound of an instrument just doesn't stop at it's outputs, it's how it's recorded too and not everyone is recording digitally.

i use both, mpc for all my beats, fl and cubase for basslines, then i track out to cubase for mixing, soon im getting the emu xboard 49 with proteus x

I prefer real sex to cyber sex

"if you had ever been in a "real" fast car you would know that the mustang isn't one.."

There is a diffence between a muscle, and a sports car. Muscle cars are cheap performance vehicles. Usually quick quarter miles, and decent high speed. Sports cars are a mixture of both. Quick quarter miles, and high top speed. To say a mustang isn't a fast car is foolish. You can make them cars (an any muscle car) do whatever you money can make it do. doing a quarter mile in less than 6 seconds is far from slow.

"Rox, your'e assuming everyone records on a computer. The sound of an instrument just doesn't stop at it's outputs, it's how it's recorded too and not everyone is recording digitally"

not at all 2wice. In fact, I don't even own a recorder. I'm just speaking in practicallity. a VST synth can sound good, even if it doesn't sound 100% like the original. And considering the price, and the equipment it's run on, I would never assume the VST would be as good as the original. BUT if it has the approval from the creator of the synth, that a fairly good sign that the VST sounds decent. I'm all about making good music and I think a lot of people make things seem harder than what it really is. Once you have YOUR process down pat, it's really simple. No matter what equipment you use, if you know it well, nothing is hard to do. If you can bang out tracks on a casio, then all the hoopla of the newest MPC shouldn't make a bit of difference to you. Just be you. I can't knock anyone for wanting to buy an original synth for $10,000. If that's your choice, and the difference in sound is noticable to you, then great. Once again, I don't know the differnce in the sound, but I know it can make all kinds of weird sounds that I would love to use. (I believe R2D2's 'voice' was made with the ARP2600). A yamaha DX-1 (for example) is gonna hit you for about $3000. A VST version may come with a bundle of other synths and cost $299. I've been interested in synths for the last 5 years or so, but the price made me stay away from them. I'd buy the the cheaper synths (akai AX-60, Casio CZ-3000, yamaha dx-100) and make the best of them. Whats $100 or $200? Nahmean? I'm a hardware type of guy also, I've never used a computer for my music except to burn a cd, or convert something to an MP3, but when I got my first taste of a freebie garageband synth, I was sold. If the free one is nice, a VST synth that's approved by the originator should be better (than the garageband synth)...right?

Yo elmacaco (and to anyone else), I just want you to know that I'm enjoy this. The fact that your not being an internet gangsta makes this discussion tolerable. No mutha-f this, or, I'll come to your house typa schyt. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean that I'm trying to be an a-hole. I'm just being me.. thank you for being you.

ok, lets continue..

"I prefer real sex to cyber sex"

haha, me too, but don't act like you ain't ever grabbed your johnson while surfing the net! Real sex is DEFINATELY the best, but cyber sex is aaight too though!

ok, here, a quote....

Product Overview & Specifications:

Moog Modular V
...
This was with a quick search on ebay for a VST synth (collection). check for yourself. $399.00 Just type VST synth.. go ahead... go on now.

Yeah that's the marketing department, they paid bob for the endorsement and Bob didn;t say anything about the sound. Check the direct quotes. You are repeating the marketing BS as if it's gospel. I don;t think you are a person who believes everything you read, why would you repeat that when you don't know? Just repeat what the company says? I don;t think that;s really you man.

"Why does the money and pricetag have to come into it?"

Because it's a factor. If money wasn't an issue, you wouldn't be using a drum machine to make beats. You'd hire a drummer, and hire a keyboard player, etc, etc. Drum machines were made to help guitarists practice WITHOUT hiring a drummer.. No drummer, less money. If I can get a sound that is close to the original, why should I pay for the original when I know nothing about it???? I like fast cars, but I don't have a lamborghini. My mustang can do a quarter in less than 12 seconds.. I'm happy.

Right, but when I judge a drum machine for uit';s sound and performance, it isn;t always in refference to my wallet. A minimoog sounds incredible, I don;t have the money for it, but it doesn;t make the arturia version sound better because I can't get the real thing. Thats what you keep saying in different ways, and what I take issue with.

"I'll never own a pipe organ and I surely can;t afford one, but it's a fantastic instrument"

It sure is a great instrument...IN A CHURCH.

it's a great instrument period, weather it's practical for me to own one has nothing to do with it's sound or playability.

My neighbors have a rock/electronic group called 'Adult.' (do a search on yahoo.. ADULT, DETROIT.. something like that) The live across the street from me and have just about EVERY synth you can imagine.. Well, maybe not every, but he got more than a few up there. Korg poly's Roland Juno's, CR-8000's, 808's, 909's, even some funky looking rolands that don't even look like drum machines. Anyways, I don't know where you get the idea that I don't know!!

OK sorry, you said you never owned an 808, and that you don't know how a 2600 or other expensive synth sounds. my mistake, but still with the dollar value. the 808 is more than just it's sounds, it has a sequencer that's really easy to play live, incredible feel, and if synced with other analog gear it has a lot more value that just it's sounds, just ask marly marl who used it to trigger samples from his Korg Delays. point is, you're judging a machine on it's usefulness to you based on it;s price, if the 808 cost $100 your opinion would change, which is really punkish.

I'm actually getting kinda tired of this.

Me too.

If I didn't know, I wouldn't say anything about it. The fact is that I do know, and a real 808 DOES NOT sound $1000 than my 808 samples.

That statement is so foolish. I guess the lambo doesn't drive $200,000 better than your stang either? $1000 is not a lot of money to everyone, and you can find better prices for gear, how much it's worth to you cash wise and the value of the machine are two different things and you keep equating them.

An 808 ONLY sound better to people that have spent $1000 on one and need to justify why the spent that kind of money.

I've never seen 808's go for $1000, most people I know with them got them for much less, and could get more cash for them, often trippling the price they paid, but they hold on to them because they love them. Replacing the 808 with samples would require a sequencer and sampler as well, and while the es-1 could basically do it, you'd lose the trigger outs, the indi outs, the din sync, the ability to modify, and the analog sound, which makes the sound of the 808. Do a fast kick roll with long decay on your friends 808, listen to the hats, they don;t sound the same every hit.

I know that's not worth cash to you, but it is part of the machine, and you need to know more about the machine to judge it than just the price and the fact that $1000 to you is a lot of money for music equipment.



"buying hardware instead of software lets you then resell that hardware to buy something else in the future. Try selling a copy of reason 1 see how much you get."

If you shell out 5 grand for an ARP, you better have a DAMN good reason why you absolutely need it...

Why? What if holmes has a lot of cash and just wants one to keep his crib warm? Who does he need to submit his reason to get approval? You seem to assume that everyone is in your position. I'm in no way able to get an ARP 2600 tomorrow, but I don;t need to put conditions on those that can.

especially if you can get a vst for less than $100.

the arp VST's are more the $100, and they are totally different things.

If I bought reason for $300

Cuz we all know you didn't

and could only get $150 2 years later.. no big deal..

Try getting $1.50, you won't.

If I paid 5 grand for the arp, and could only get $3000, it's a big deal.

Speculation, Arp's haven;t lost value like that, they were gettable a few years back for 1800, not they range between that and 5000 at the very top for really cherry machines. Again, as long as it's low priced you have no problem with it, which has nothing to do with the actual machine, more to do with the fact that you're cheap. nothing wrong with that, but don;t try and pass it off on the machines.

Your saying the same thing that I'm saying. If you've tried a real ARP, and know it's amazing, then by all means, spend the money. You will not be satisfied with a VST on an eMachine. Again, I don't know what an ARP sounds like, but I would love to include one in my music because of all the hype that it's generated. A VST is perfect for me, and anyone else that would be interested in hearing what an arp is capable of. That's all I'm saying.. what's the problem with that?

I am not saying what you are saying, the VST isn;t an ARP, it's an emulation. Again the main problem I had with you is you said it sounds the same when you haven;t heard the real thing so you wouldn;t know. and saying that its dumb to get a real one because the vst is cheaper, when they are totally different products and have a very different sound and interface (3d vs. 2D). you started off saying they sound the same, and I called that Bullshyt. That's where it all started and probably where it'll end, you can;t refute that cuz you haven;t heard one, so stop repeating the marketing hype, it doesn;t suit you.











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