Multis

Ok then. MPC 4000s are about $1000 now. I will order one and get the answers to questions myself....and yes, while I am waiting for that...show me proof that you can load 65,000 files in the MPC 4000. And having 64 voice polphony is a big limiting factory when layer samples and sounds in the MPC 4000 or any MPC.

Just a thought follow the tips that renegebliss gave to the
letter, visit a experienced 4k users lab or reread the 4k
manual it will save you a grand!!!

But if you decide to go ahead with your purchase
feel free to ask any of us to help you out.

Please ask nicely though and be patient.

Blue Haze wrote:Just a thought follow the tips that renegebliss gave to the
letter, visit a experienced 4k users lab or reread the 4k
manual it will save you a grand!!!

But if you decide to go ahead with your purchase
feel free to ask any of us to help you out.

Please ask nicely though and be patient.

I honestly don't need the tips but thanks. The only purpose is to seperate fact from ficition and write about it. Namm didn't show me anything I want to buy so the change I set aside for new products will go towards buying an MPC 4000.

Let me be the first to pull up a ring side seat, this should be a good matchup.

Askia Shaheed wrote:Ok then. MPC 4000s are about $1000 now. I will order one and get the answers to questions myself....and yes, while I am waiting for that...show me proof that you can load 65,000 files in the MPC 4000.

Have to brush of the dust from my scripting skills, but I could use a MPC 5000, so it's worth effort. To make it fair, I'll pay for the
shipping from Japan

Askia Shaheed wrote:And having 64 voice polphony is a big limiting factory when layer samples and sounds in the MPC 4000 or any MPC.

It's not a limiting factor in regards to what I'm discussing which is setting up different Zones to play different samples.
If the Polyphony was 1 voice, it would still be extremely useful.
We're not talking about how many sounds can go at once. It's more in regards to which
samples COULD be played at any one given time. Available
at your beck and call depending on how hard you hit the pad.

So even with it setup to 128 samples mapped to 128 different velocity zones, it would still only be 1 sample playing at the same time
as the given velocity of a hit is only 1 value....


cheers,
Dave

renegadebliss wrote:

Askia Shaheed wrote:Ok then. MPC 4000s are about $1000 now. I will order one and get the answers to questions myself....and yes, while I am waiting for that...show me proof that you can load 65,000 files in the MPC 4000.

Have to brush of the dust from my scripting skills, but I could use a MPC 5000, so it's worth effort. To make it fair, I'll pay for the
shipping from Japan

Askia Shaheed wrote:And having 64 voice polphony is a big limiting factory when layer samples and sounds in the MPC 4000 or any MPC.

It's not a limiting factor in regards to what I'm discussing which is setting up different Zones to play different samples.
If the Polyphony was 1 voice, it would still be extremely useful.
We're not talking about how many sounds can go at once. It's more in regards to which
samples COULD be played at any one given time. Available
at your beck and call depending on how hard you hit the pad.

So even with it setup to 128 samples mapped to 128 different velocity zones, it would still only be 1 sample playing at the same time
as the given velocity of a hit is only 1 value....


cheers,
Dave

I wasn't talking about 128 velocity zones. I am talking about the techniques forum members say they use....which is creating keygroup programs with keygroups stack/applied to the same range to create complex sounds and then layer these more in a Multi program.

So if someone loaded 16 keygroup instruments, each with samples assigned to multiple-zones, each which has keygroups assigned to the same range...you can quickly eat up at least half of the MPCs polyphony if these programs play at the same time. Then trying to add these to a multi for more layering? 64 voices takes you only so far. 4K has the same ceiling as the latest MPC in this regard. Talking about having 10,000 sounds loaded and at your finger tips does not sound like music to me...and is completely useless. My keyboard doesn't even have 10,000 sounds. Sorting through that many sounds does not inspire music. Even in a live set...nobody cares if you have 1000 different kick drums at your beck and call. Don't you realize that the companies that makes these workstations are laughing at some of these silly requests? Companies like Akai, Roland, Roger Linn/Dave Smith, Korg, Yamaha, etc are setting out to make products that musicians want/need. Based upon the products I have seen come and go over they past decade...you will not see a new device that will do what you are saying across these forums. This is my humble opinion of course.

Now if you really insist on furthering your cause, post some specific examples that people can hear so they can gain a better understanding and appreciaition of having such functions at their finger tips. Until you do that, it doesn't really matter and these companies will probably not listen to your input.

Askia Shaheed wrote:
Now if you really insist on furthering your cause, post some specific examples that people can hear so they can gain a better understanding and appreciaition of having such functions at their finger tips. Until you do that, it doesn't really matter and these companies will probably not listen to your input.

I'm not trying to further my cause, just answer all the questions and statements that you have thrown. Again, you forget
I have what I need to do this. If you can't understand the benefits of having Multiple Zones on an MPC or any other
Sampler for that matter, there's no explainations on my part that is going to help you out with that. It's a fairly simple
concept. So the only examples I plan to post, is the example of me loading up a lot of samples and obtaining a free
MPC 5000.


Cheers,
Dave

This should be about making Akai understand why you need an MPC do to the things you write about here. It's obvious they have been going in a different direction.

Just some info I got over at Akai and my own observations on multis.



From my talks with Akai, it seems that corporate strategy decided was that the groove machine direction was were they wanted to go after the 4k. Confirmed by Akai and several posters on the board such as scd also. Phrase sampling with timeslicing functions are the main strengths of the MPC sampler series in a world of software studio samplers. Remember Akai no longer makes hardware samplers and they seem not to be planning another sampler engine to compete with the software as many third party library publishers make DVDs and CDs for the likes of Kontakt, EXS, and etc.

Since the 4k seems technically the last studio sampler combo mpc that Akai has produced. Many users that uses multisampling functionality continue to support the unit. There are some differences between software samplers and the 4k but also there are alot of great similarites as the 4k is capable in the hands of many users creating patches and sounds on par with the software samplers once the user understand the principles of using Multis, keygroups, velocity switching, tilt velocity, and assigning sources and destinations matrix.

Really using a Logic EXS and the 4k is on the same scale though I don`t personally don`t have an extensive sample library for the 4k like I have for my Logic EXS hence I design custom sounds from anything from synth waves, train station drones, to old 80s keyboard synths like korg M1. Since I`m not using traditional sounds like grand piano and the like ( I leave that up to my EXS and Kontakt libraries) I just reverse engineer all the techniques I learn from the months from Ableton sampler, (Spectrasonics Omnisphere deep techniques on sound design) and try to come up with my own that I learn from them. Hence I enjoy the use of a full sampler learning that all full multisample samplers have a multi that is a basic part of sampler design going back to the S1000 series abet each unit and each manufacturer gives it different names.

Groove machines from the electribes, mv, RS, to almost all mpcs basic focus it on groove phrases and drum loops the cornerstone of dance music from house, hip hop, techno, electronica to pop. With workstations providing the multisamples and synth sounds so in this kind of climate Nuakai when with the new combo of groove machine with a synth logical step as that is the dominant sound in the current state of music today. If that was my mantra also hell yeah I would go with just a groove machine also.


It is a smart move by Akai to stay alive and vibrant in the competition but it seems that the software makers are doing the same providing hardware synergy with software samplers that mind you still use multis also. Which is exactly us 4k holdovers have been decrying to have in a new mpc 6k like you said before. But my akai contact says it is likely not going to happen .


All the same, for me at least to create custom patches and sounds it what the true strength of multi to give users more choices of sounds to use and isn`t that what a sampler is for to sample anything like striking a wine glass and spanning the sound over a key group set at tilt velocity -50 on channel 1A and assigning another sound of wind chimes layered with a synth sound spanned over its own key group split also with a velocity (not tilt) +50 assign to channel 1A in the multi each with different panning, levels, and the whole nine with effects to come up with a sound you can say it your own.


All manufactories still make and use multis from Roland, Yamaha, Korg, you name it. It is the same basic multi-sampler basic just depends on the end users doing it themselves or relying on preset patches the company provides.



Renegebliss gave great and excellent examples already on how to use multis along with mcsmooth on making a synth patches sounds, and buzziman posts on creating custom sounds. It is there to see just depends whether the user want to use the tools or not. Can`t really blame the company for anything. A sampler never truely gets dated because you can put in the sounds you want and create what you want whether its automated for us or we have to do it all by hand.

Askia Shaheed wrote:Ok then. MPC 4000s are about $1000 now. I will order one and get the answers to questions myself....

Prices are not droping it simply depends on ocasions.

Producers have been using hardware/software keygroup samplers alongside their MPCs as far back as 1987. The MPC 4000 (released in 2002...15 years later) was the first MPC to incorporate an onboard Akai keygroup sampler. This was based upon the Z8 engine. Regardless of its power, it was the least popular MPC to date for numerous reasons to count. The new Akai sought input from the people that use MPCs on a daily basis (espcially users of legacy MPCs) and came up with a product that represents this vision. The MPC 3000 and 2500 best represent what producers want in an MPC. In fact, according to http://www.prepal.com, the MPC 3000 on the used market is priced equal to and higher than the MPC 4000 in spite of being far less powerful. Thus the MPC 3500 (renamed the MPC 5000) was born.

Phrase sampling and 'time slicing' ( ) are not the strenghts of the MPC 5000. The strengths of the MPC 5000 are its sequencer, Q-links for internal/external control, hard disk recording capabilities, and overall streamlined interface for creating musc in the studio and live performances. Due to the emergence of VA synths (note that Alesis and Akai are under the same umbrella), Akai added a 20 voice synth engine onboard. Staying true to their promise to deliver what producers want, OS2.0 adds over 25 new functions. Most of these functions significantly improves the workflow of the MPC 5000 that has never before seen in any MPC. Although Akai no longer makes stand alone multi-samplers (such as the S6000 and Z8), they added keygroups programs due to overwhelming feedback they received from forum threads, emails, telephone calls, etc. They took this a step further by making the 5K compatible with Akai S and Z series keygroup programs. There are many things under the hood of the MPC 5000 to include layering all 128 keygroups within the keygroup program to include panning of individual samples or keygroups. For further sound shaping, the MPC 5000 matches and exceeds the MPC 4000 in terms of effects and tweakable parameters. In Multimode, you can assign a different program to each track. You can assign these tracks/programs to 32 different MIDI channels or even the same MIDI channels for additionally layering if you like. Again, there is more to the MPC 5000 than meets the eye.

I have been a staunch supporter of MPCs from the start. I applaud Akai's efforts for giving producers what they want. But keygroup programs as we have seen in the past hardware samplers are no match for the power of software samplers. From a marketing standpoint, its good to have keygroup programs in an MPC. Akai may very well add the velocity switching, modulation destinations, etc. But in reality, people that use hardware samplers for loading and playing back instruments are in the minority. If you look at the new keyboard workstations, sampling appears to be an after-thought. Roland's Fantom G didn't receive multi-sample support until months after its release and doesn't support any industry program formats. None. The days of using 256 MB piano patches in a hardware device are gone. No hardware sampler (drum machine/keyboard workstation) can fully support the new sample libraries on the market today. There are $300 software samplers that ship with 3 Gb piano patches. Building a new MPC to handle all of this would be a daunting task espcially since computers become more powerful every 6 months and software follows suit. Producers don't twiddle with 512mb samplers when they have gigs of samples at their finger tips. Personally, I got rid of my hardware samplers a long time ago in favor of Kontakt 3, Mach 5, Giga Studio 3, Reason 4, and soon Structure because they were dated and limited in comparision. Based upon this, Akai's further efforts should be to expand the MPCs control of hardware and software alike. With or without OS2, the MPC 5000 can best accomplish these tasks better than any MPC or product on the market. Even Native Instruments new device is no match for the hands on approach as the MPC 5000..not even close.

*Note- The MPC 4000 biggest celebrity indorser is Just Blaze. He doesn't use the MPC 4000 for multi-sampling. He uses the MPC 4000 as a MIDI sequencer for keyboards/ sound modules as well as for chopping and sequencing sampled phrases. His beef with the MPC 5000 is well documented and I am happy to say that ALL his concerns have been addressed with OS2.

There is really nothing more I can say. (well there is but either you get it or you don't). Nobody in this forum knows for sure what Akai/Numark/Alesis will do in the future. But I do know that they must deliver products that people want and need in order to survive. I feel the MPC 5000 is one of those products...alongside my MPC 5000 unplugged (which would include multis)

The next arguing if MPC 4k is flagship or MPC 5K. That don't make sense. Both machines are great IMO, but 4K is cheaper.
About OS 2.0 - I think they are simply ashamed by how JJ did.

Producers have been using hardware/software keygroup samplers alongside their MPCs as far back as 1987. The MPC 4000 (released in 2002...15 years later) was the first MPC to incorporate an onboard Akai keygroup sampler

Hey these are my words I posted in the previous thread biting and we know this.

Regardless of its power, it was the least popular MPC to date for numerous reasons to count.

Really if you say so.

The new Akai sought input from the people that use MPCs on a daily basis (espcially users of legacy MPCs) and came up with a product that represents this vision.

I stated this above right. [quote blue haze]From my talks with Akai, it seems that corporate strategy decided was that the groove machine direction was were they wanted to go after the 4k. Confirmed by Akai and several posters on the board such as scd also.[/quote]

Due to the emergence of VA synths (note that Alesis and Akai are under the same umbrella), Akai added a 20 voice synth engine onboard. Staying true to their promise to deliver what producers want, OS2.0 adds over 25 new functions.

Actually the promise was a fusion engine which has a full multisampler but just the synth got added.

For further sound shaping, the MPC 5000 matches and exceeds the MPC 4000 in terms of effects and tweakable parameters. In Multimode, you can assign a different program to each track. You can assign these tracks/programs to 32 different MIDI channels or even the same MIDI channels for additionally layering if you like.

Really confirmed with Akai and confirmed with scd there is no multi in the new mpc and no plan to add as the programming and chip is different check scd yourself. We already explained how easy it is to use multi, channels, tracks and programs no need to repeat just reread the previous post.

Nobody in this forum knows for sure what Akai/Numark/Alesis will do in the future. But I do know that they must deliver products that people want and need in order to survive. I feel the MPC 5000 is one of those products...alongside my MPC 5000 unplugged (which would include multis)

It seems like you are contradicting yourself first you say no one knows (for me I can call like tomorrow) and next you claim what Akai will do which one??



What have any of your conclusions have to do with the use of multis and how to use multis you got me????

This is a thread on setup, usage, and techniques of multis, right??

Since Structure sampler was mention from above a cool video showing the usage of a Multi.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXhdZoSZ ... re=related

The browser is equal to the multi list page.


The part is the same as the in any multi.

Assigning midi channels is the same as the any multis.

In fact the video is an entire proper demonstration of using a multis no differences. Just load in sounds and assign it is easy.
.

The new Akai sought input from the people that use MPCs on a daily basis (espcially users of legacy MPCs) and came up with a product that represents this vision.

Blue Haze wrote:From my talks with Akai, it seems that corporate strategy decided was that the groove machine direction was were they wanted to go after the 4k. Confirmed by Akai and several posters on the board such as scd also.

Akai did not set out to make a groove machine. Groove machines is what Roland does. The MPC 5000 builds about the MPC 3000/2500, which are music/midi production work centers, not cheap groove boxes.

Blue Haze wrote:Actually the promise was a fusion engine which has a full multisampler but just the synth got added.

When/where did Akai promise a fusion engine in an MPC? A multisampler was not promised but we now have one. Its up to Akai if they want to expand on the 20 voice synth. Based upon what OS 2 adds, I wouldn't take anything off the table just yet.

Blue Haze wrote:Really confirmed with Akai and confirmed with scd there is no multi in the new mpc and no plan to add as the programming and chip is different check scd yourself. We already explained how easy it is to use multi, channels, tracks and programs no need to repeat just reread the previous post.

If you read what I wrote, I stated that the MPC 5K has a Multi-mode in OS1. This turns the MP into a 32 channel multi-timbral sound module to be controlled by an external sequencer. I don't have to check with SCD on this. I do own an MPC 5000.

Nobody in this forum knows for sure what Akai/Numark/Alesis will do in the future. But I do know that they must deliver products that people want and need in order to survive. I feel the MPC 5000 is one of those products...alongside my MPC 5000 unplugged (which would include multis)

Blue Haze wrote:It seems like you are contradicting yourself first you say no one knows (for me I can call like tomorrow) and next you claim what Akai will do which one??

I made no such claim. I clearly stated no one in this forum knows 100% what Akai will do next. But I do know (in general terms) that in order to survive, they have to release products that people actually want. If this product is the MPC 5000..great. If it is an MPC 6000...outstanding. But my opinion is that they will not make another MPC identical to the MPC 4000 since this is not what most MPC users want.

One thing you didn't address is that there are no libraries being made today that take advantage of what the MPC 4000 offers. The MPC 4000 (or any hardware workstation) can not fully utilize the sound libraries today. So what would help all MPC users is how to use the more superior software samplers to their advantage.

Ekl1p5e, created this thread. His questions were answered within the first few posts and the thread started to sink into oblivion. I revived it to talk about multis in general. I believe we are still on topic. Or maybe not. Should I create another thread about the same thing?

* If I find time to pry myself away from my MPC, I will probably create some tutorials on how to get the most use from OS2. Stay tuned.